Hurst V-gate repair advice needed

Manual Transmission & Clutch Discussions

  1. SSG_Karg

    SSG_Karg Heeeeeres Johnny!

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    So I guess I got a little carried away and was a little too aggressive with the shifting. The threaded end of the stick snapped off right at the bottom of the threads. What would you say is the best way to repair this? Notice I said BEST, not easiest because I don’t plan to change my shifting enthusiasm and dont want this to happen again.
    Right now I’m thinking I’ll need to disassemble the shifter and have the stick turned down in a lathe and re-threaded. Anyone have experience disassembling one of these shifters? I noticed there are some rivets involved and the directions specifically say not to disassemble due to tolerances that are set at the factory. What say you?

    0EE55D18-1C11-485E-839B-C29F54AAB45C.jpeg
     
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    • yellow rose

      yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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      It broke at the thread. It will probably do it again. You can get it in a 4 jaw Chuck, indicate it in and make it round, but that doesn’t solve the real issue.

      And that is you have way too much leverage with that long grip. You have to reduce that leverage or make the threads probably double the diameter. Having the grip that far above the threads makes that last thread (the last thread below the lock nut) a pivot point and it will break again unless you address that issue.
       
      Last edited: May 2, 2021
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      • Garrett Ellison

        Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate.. FABO Gold Member

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        So much for the "Shift as hard as you want, but careful not to break your arm!" advertising line... The best option I see is machining the handle to slide over the stick with a light interference fit (probably CNC, and probably not cheap...) and having it drilled it for a couple of 3/16 or so roll pins to retain it.
         
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        • yellow rose

          yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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          That would be a good fix^^^^^. The cheaper alternative would be to put a different handle on it, like a ball or something so it doesn’t have all that leverage on the threads.
           
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          • SSG_Karg

            SSG_Karg Heeeeeres Johnny!

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            Yeah, I figured that I should probably go back to the T handle but I just love the pistol grip so much. It does add height therefore adding throw distance but it is so much more natural feeling.
            Mostly I’m looking for any advice on disassembling far enough to remove the stick from the body and if there are any pitfalls involved there. Will be swapping the factory shifter back in until repairs can be made.
            Do you think having the grip drilled and tapped deeper and more threads cut on the stick would help? Like instead of 3/4” of threads, go to 1.5” of threads? I’m not up to snuff on my physics :BangHead:
             
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            • yellow rose

              yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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              Doesn’t really matter how deep you thread the handle because the stress rise is always at the first thread below the lock nut.

              Take a ton of pictures as you take the shifter apart. They aren’t that complicated. I prefer an exploded view drawing over pictures but I’m old school. The disassembly and reassembly will be the easy part.
               
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              • gzig5

                gzig5 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                I'd grind the top of the shifter stub down a bit to get to more meat then drill and tap it. Cut the head off a long grade 8 bolt and install with red loctite. You won't break that bolt if it is 3/8" dia but 5/16 could still be an issue. Drilling it straight could be a trick but clamping some guides to the shifter stub should help. A good grade of bolt with decent support for the handle on the top of the stub, will live. You dont' want that handle sitting out on the end of a threaded rod with no support, that is why it broke in the first place. Need some support to take up that forward and back loading. That nut should be sitting down on as broad a shoulder as you can provide.
                 
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                • SGBARRACUDA

                  SGBARRACUDA ROY FABO Gold Member

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                  Damn, it must be the leverage thing or you are a fricking gorilla! I’ve have had several Mr Gasket V-gates and hammered the hell out of them and never broke one. A call to Hurst might help you out.
                   
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                  • Daves69

                    Daves69 Well-Known Member

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                    What is the minor width of the stick? Can you turn it into a larger diameter thread and do the same for the grip?
                     
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                    • Garrett Ellison

                      Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate.. FABO Gold Member

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                      Those sticks are supposed to be hardened, so I don’t know how much machining (especially rethreading) you could reasonably expect to do on one. It’s a probably going to take a carbided tool to even drill it.
                       
                    • SSG_Karg

                      SSG_Karg Heeeeeres Johnny!

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                      I don’t believe I can get a larger diameter threaded area out of it. The stick goes from round to flat just below the old threads. I’ll be lucky if I can get the same 3/8 threads on it again.
                      I did find a replacement stick on eBay but I think I want to try and repair the old one first. Taking an inch or so off the end wouldn’t be a bad thing anyway. Shorten the throw a whisker while getting the grip down lower closer to the trigger.
                      Not sure about how hard the stick is, guess the machine shop will figure that out.
                      HURST V Vertical Gate 4 Speed Shifter 4118156 CHROME MAIN Stick / Handle NEW | eBay
                       
                    • Daves69

                      Daves69 Well-Known Member

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                      Hit an edge with a file. It could be an indicator. I believe "hard turning" smaller threads is possible.
                       
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                      • gzig5

                        gzig5 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        If it is through hardened, that is a mistake. It would only need a thin case if wear was a concern. Even through hardened to 35-40 Rockwell it should still be able to be drilled and tapped. If it's harder than that it isn't surprising that it snapped in the narrow area with stress risers.
                         
                      • 19DART66

                        19DART66 Well-Known Member

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                        I snapped my vertical gate shifter off the same way, took it to a guy I now who is an excellent welder fabricator. He cut the stick off below the 3/8 threaded part were it was a 1/2 inch thick, then cut the head off a 1/2 inch fine thread grade 8 bolt. Tapered The ends of both pieces and filled in the tapers with weld, then put a bead of weld above and below that. Ground the welds down smooth and that was 8 or 10 years ago. The pistol grip handle I use was a universal one that had the insert for 1/2 inch fine. 1224150828.jpg
                        P.S. I was in an out of his shop in less than a half hour.
                         
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                        • yellow rose

                          yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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                          Is that a Vertigate or a Ram Rod??? Both are inline shifters, but only one is a Vertigate.
                           
                        • RustyRatRod

                          RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                          Why not call Hurst and explain to them what happened? It's possible you're not the only one whose had that problem and they are aware of it and maybe even have a heavier duty shift handle available. You never know. They might even send you a new one.
                           
                        • 19DART66

                          19DART66 Well-Known Member

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                          YR you are right it is a Ram Rod not a Vertigate,I have a habit of calling them all vertical gate shifters. But it snapped off in the same place, right at the bottom of the 3/8 threads.
                           
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                          • yellow rose

                            yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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                            The only reason I asked is because the Ram Rod will pretty much fit in the stock shifter hole without a bunch of cutting and the Vertigate is a giant mechanism that you have to cut the crap out of the floor to get it in there.

                            I wish they still made the Ram Rod new. But 3 pedal guys are few and far between and getting less in number every day.
                             
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                            • AJ/FormS

                              AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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                              You got that right.
                               
                            • RustyRatRod

                              RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                              My understanding was the Vertigate was Mr Gasket. The Ram Rod was Hurst.
                               
                            • yellow rose

                              yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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                              True. IIRC Hurst, in their infinite wisdom stopped making the Ram Rod and then made a Vertigate. I can’t think of what they called it, but the Ram Rod was a much better shifter.


                              Edit: they called it the V Gate 2.
                               
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                              • RustyRatRod

                                RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                                It was called the V Gate.
                                 
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                                • j par

                                  j par Well-hung Member

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                                  I have a true Hurst v gate and that's a ram rod...
                                  It snapped off because of the 4-5 inches of leverage that non factory after market handle put on the tip of the shifter...
                                  It simply wasn't designed for that handle...
                                   
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                                  • j par

                                    j par Well-hung Member

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                                    Ten bucks says calling Hurst would be a joke...
                                     
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                                    • AJ/FormS

                                      AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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                                      I ditched my Mr-Gasket in-line for a short-stick Bang! H-pattern shifter, with a ball. From the Factory window, I mounted it about 8 inches back, and over to the right, and high enough to install the top bolt from inside the cabin. Then I made new rods from seamless tubing,and re-installed the swivels from the Hurst rods, plug welding them in.
                                      Thanks to that, and the slick-shifting mods I did, and the diaphragm clutch; that A833 now shifts like a hot-knife thru butter; gone are the days of ramming the crap out of it, and,
                                      I have never missed a shift since.
                                      I like the ball because of the infinite number of hand positions it offers; a different position for every type of driving.

                                      random ideas, and Just for fun;
                                      I switched to a Commando box with a 3.09 low gear, and ran it thru a GVod, and 3.55s. This gave me the following road gears;
                                      10.97-8.56-6.82-5.32, and a bunch of others ending at 2.77 for the hiway. 5.32 is the right gear for me to do the EighthMile in, trapping at 93=6220. And on the hiway this combo does 65=2240
                                      With a standard A833, to trap correctly, I would have to run 5.38s, for a starter of 14.31, and 65=4400
                                      And finally, while running the Eighth, I pull the stick just once, from First-over to Second; while the other two shifts are full-power electric-shifts.
                                      In regular driving , I save the GVod for Third-over, and then go straight to Fourth-over, giving me an OD ratio of .78/1.09=.716
                                      The 10.97 starter is the equivalent of 10.97/2.66=4.12s with a regular A833, which you would likely never run on the street, but with it, I can drive 4.0 mph not slipping the clutch.
                                      I cannot begin to tell you how versatile this combo is.
                                      Here is a comparison;
                                      first the standard A833, then my combo;
                                      2.66-1.92-1.40-1.00; splits of .72-.73-.714
                                      3.09-2.41-1.92-(1.50/1.40)-(1.09/1.00)-.78od; GV in red,
                                      and a nice progressive series of splits from 3.09 to 1.50 being
                                      .78-.80-.78- then .52 going from 1.50 to .78
                                      ( because in 1.50 ratio, 5500 is 82mph/7000 is 105mph).
                                      and three other ratios that I use in different ways depending on circumstances, the first four for the Eighth,for instance.

                                      I have not run the quarter with this combo, but I suspect, by the Eighth results, that she might do 112. If so, that would be ~5450 in 1.09 ratio, right on the fattest part of the power-curve. I would use the following ratios;
                                      3.09-2.41-1.92-1.40-1.09, splits of .78-.80-73-.78; two pulls and two splits.

                                      Ya-kno, people dis the GVod because it is only .78od, but I extol it, because it works so well with the Commando gearset. It's like they designed that OD-box for the Commando ratios.


                                      It also works reasonably well with the A833overdrive box, but you have to have a hi-torque engine, to pull the wide splits when not splitting the gears. In regular useage, it did not work out well for me, because 3.55s put regular second gear at an awkward rpm, and it required 4.30s to make it right. That made the starter gear 13.29 way too deep for daily driver useage. And you cannot easily start the GVod in od (which would be an ideal 10.36), because the unit requires a constant driveshaft rotation to maintain it's pressure, at least mine does. It will barely maintain pressure thru a normal light-change. Here is the A833od box/GVod combo ratio-progression;

                                      3.09-2.41-1.67-1.30-1.00-.78-.57 splits of .78-.69-.78-.77-.78-.73.
                                      I ran 4.30s to get road-gears of;
                                      13.29-10.36-7.18-5.60-4.30-3.34-2.45, SEVEN usable ratios,
                                      and 65=2000rpm.
                                      I abandoned this combo, because I kept forgetting to lift going into Mopar-OD which always resulted in a blown up overdrive mainshaft gear; which, one time, also took out the input gear. With 4.30s in the back, this is, apparently, very easy to do,lol. I have turned several A833od boxes into 3-speeds.
                                      This combo liked my 10.7Scr 367 running the Hughes HE2430AL cam, with ~180 psi cranking pressure; but it was at times a lil sketchy, when NOT splitting gears. For that reason, I eventually gave it up. Well,about that time, the 223/230 cam dropped lobes and the 230/237 cam that followed, just couldn't make me happy without splitting gears full-time, which killed the fun-factor.

                                      As for your combo, at the risk of sounding like an azz,
                                      If you are a streeter, ask yourself how many shifts you actually pull, at WOT, before you are speeding.
                                      With 3.55s, 65=5570 in Second gear, so about 99% of the time, you are gonna stop there. Or you might wring second out to 6500=75, or like me 7200=84mph.
                                      IMO
                                      Long-sticks are for trucks and tractors, and
                                      Pistol-grips are slow-shifting. Ergo;
                                      long sticks with pistol grips, may look cool and all, and if it pleases you, my argument cannot be against it,
                                      but.................... just go measure the distance between your blackies at the shifts, and see how much time your power is spent, not connected to the road.......
                                      By my weight and ET, my engine is cranking out 433hp. with a relatively small 230 cam, and overspeeding it to 7000. IMO that cannot be. I attribute the trapspeed to the very high average power being delivered to the tires without any spaces between the shifts.
                                      Below is a power-curve of a similar to my combo; Shifting at 7000, the rpm falls to about 5400, which, as you can see, is on the flattest part of the curve. I suppose I could short shift at 6400 and come in at 5000, still on the fat part, and now on the torque-peak. If I extrapolate the torque curve out to 6400, this engine might still be making 350/360 ftpounds. 350@6400 is still 426hp, about the same as at 5000. This is what a tight split of .78/.80 is doing for me. Heckuva thing that GV is. My average power in each gear is very close to my peak power, I'd guess close to 95%. With a regular 4 speed,and splits averaging 72%, shifting at 6000, and dropping in at 4300, the average might be 390hp, or 89%............ With same reaction times,60fts, and same engine .......... which combo do you imagine might cross the beams first?
                                      But, I don't shortshift.
                                      In fact I usually shift at 7200, preferring to hear the engine screaming, completely drowning out the agony of the tires, for 5, 6, 7, sometimes 8 seconds atta crack,lol.. As to ET, I don't really gibachit..... mine is a streeter, built exclusively to please just me.
                                      As I'm sure yours was built just to please you. Well except for the friggen broken shifter.
                                      My Bang! has 1/2 coarse threads. Which at first wouldn't keep torque with a T-handle, which kindof pissed me off cuz I had retapped the T-handle from 3/8-fine. So then, I tapped the base of it and mounted it like a pistolgrip, but that didn't please me. So then, I just got rid of it and loctited the faceless ball, in the exact right orientation.....lol. How can I complain about a ball? It's been on there now since maybe.......... Oh I remember, right after I got rid of the in-line shifter in 2002ish. Later, I mounted the GVod splitter button on top.
                                      land_dyno.jpg
                                       
                                      Last edited: May 7, 2021 at 12:49 PM
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