Hydraulic roller lifter questions (LA 318)

kdeboy

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I'm building a 318 that will be running a hydraulic roller cam (most likely a Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 224/230). So a couple of questions:
1. Do I have to run the Comp Cams matching lifters, or will other brands of hydraulic rollers (Howard's, Hughes, etc.) be OK? My idea (if it will work) is to buy whatever brand is the lightest weight.
2. Hughes lifters say they have through-pushrod oiling. Since I'm running an LA block, I don't need that, and I'm pretty sure I don't WANT that - seems like the pushrod oiling hole in the top of the lifter would just leak/spray oil into the lifter valley which would just add to windage issues. Are there any retrofit hydraulic rollers that don't have the hole for through-pushrod oiling, or is it a non-issue?
3. Hughes recommends beehive springs, the other brands don't mention this. But I can't find any company selling beehive spring kits for an LA small block...???
Anyway, would appreciate any advice and experience running this cam (or similar) in an LA SBM, especially regarding lifters and valve springs. Thanks in advance...
 

64mopar

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If it was me,which I just got done doing.
Use a high volume/pressure oil pump.
Go with the pushrod oiling setup,you will not lose to much oil in that area,but be sure to have adequate lubrication.
 

pishta

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Beehive are not LA/Mopar specific. The cup oil ports on a hydro lifter don't have to oil a hollow pushrod, a solid rod will just get lubed at each end by its own end oiler
 

JDMopar

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I just put a small hydraulic roller in my 273, that was ground by Bullet. I used Morel hydraulic roller lifters because the oil band is low enough on the lifter body that it doesn't come out of the lifter bore and dump the oil out on each stroke. My rockers will oil thru the shafts like normal, but if my machinist orders me some hollow push rods, it will be just fine and can't hurt.
 

kdeboy

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I just put a small hydraulic roller in my 273, that was ground by Bullet. I used Morel hydraulic roller lifters because the oil band is low enough on the lifter body that it doesn't come out of the lifter bore and dump the oil out on each stroke. My rockers will oil thru the shafts like normal, but if my machinist orders me some hollow push rods, it will be just fine and can't hurt.
Are those the lifters that Hughes sells?
 

JDMopar

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They are Morel part number 5321. Street Performance lifters, good to 6500 rpm.
18C4E1DC-1A66-44C8-8AD8-D2C18C7429EB.jpeg
 

JDMopar

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If you noticed that my lifter bores are bushed, it wasn't because of the lifters, it was because I had one that was worn slap out. Just one! :BangHead: LOL. The Morels will work in stock lifter bores, but check them before you do any other work on your block.
 

Whatsup1962

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The Morel lifters work great. Pushrod oiling is BETTER than block to shaft oiling....thats why Mopar went to pushrod oiling in the magnum blocks.
 

kdeboy

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The Morel lifters work great. Pushrod oiling is BETTER than block to shaft oiling....thats why Mopar went to pushrod oiling in the magnum blocks.
How is it "better"? Besides, my heads are LA so the rockers are oiled through the rocker shafts. Any extra oil coming out the top of the lifters is wasted. In fact, worse than wasted since it dumps onto the crank and rods, increasing windage.
 

Phreakish

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How is it "better"? Besides, my heads are LA so the rockers are oiled through the rocker shafts. Any extra oil coming out the top of the lifters is wasted. In fact, worse than wasted since it dumps onto the crank and rods, increasing windage.

Ensures the pushrod ends and adjusters don't get smoked. Without pushrod oiling, it happens, especially with cheap roller rockers. I ran a set of alum prw 1.5 roller rockers in a 318 with solid pushrods and the ball cups showed significant wear vs my now hollow rods that still look like new.

If your rockers don't give a place for the oil to to from the pushrod, the amount of flow will be hampered quite a bit, and won't be an issue.

With a cam that small, it's unlikely the engine will be running revs where oil on the crank and rods will be a concern. Besides, the crank will have most of the sump whipped up anyway.. Any small 'extra' amount won't amount to anything measurable.

Might be a different story if you are planning to run a scraper or whiz bang oil pan - but that cam suggests it wouldn't be needed anyway?

More details about intended use and other parts of the build might clarify though.
 

kdeboy

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Ensures the pushrod ends and adjusters don't get smoked. Without pushrod oiling, it happens, especially with cheap roller rockers. I ran a set of alum prw 1.5 roller rockers in a 318 with solid pushrods and the ball cups showed significant wear vs my now hollow rods that still look like new.

If your rockers don't give a place for the oil to to from the pushrod, the amount of flow will be hampered quite a bit, and won't be an issue.

With a cam that small, it's unlikely the engine will be running revs where oil on the crank and rods will be a concern. Besides, the crank will have most of the sump whipped up anyway.. Any small 'extra' amount won't amount to anything measurable.

Might be a different story if you are planning to run a scraper or whiz bang oil pan - but that cam suggests it wouldn't be needed anyway?

More details about intended use and other parts of the build might clarify though.
Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I'll be running a scraper and a fancy oil pan. I don't want to get too wild with the cam since it's going into a street driven car. Was kind of thinking that reducing parasitic losses as much as possible would make up (at least a little bit) some of the power given away by running a fairly mild cam. I might go up to a Comp 230/236 but probably no higher than that. Rest of the combo will be Speedmaster heads (hopefully reworked by IMM), 10-10.5 compression ratio, Performer RPM intake, and TTI stepped headers. Still trying to figure out what carb to put on it. It'll be going into either a 66 Barracuda with a 5-speed or a 64 Valiant with a 904. If the Valiant gets it, I'll get a converter to match the engine. Either car will get rear gears to match. Also, it needs to run on 91 octane since that's the best I can get where I live.
 

Phreakish

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Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I'll be running a scraper and a fancy oil pan. I don't want to get too wild with the cam since it's going into a street driven car. Was kind of thinking that reducing parasitic losses as much as possible would make up (at least a little bit) some of the power given away by running a fairly mild cam. I might go up to a Comp 230/236 but probably no higher than that. Rest of the combo will be Speedmaster heads (hopefully reworked by IMM), 10-10.5 compression ratio, Performer RPM intake, and TTI stepped headers. Still trying to figure out what carb to put on it. It'll be going into either a 66 Barracuda with a 5-speed or a 64 Valiant with a 904. If the Valiant gets it, I'll get a converter to match the engine. Either car will get rear gears to match. Also, it needs to run on 91 octane since that's the best I can get where I live.

With a scraper and fancy pan, you could definitely see some gains in the upper rev range.

For a street car I'm not sure it would ever be obvious, but no reason to give it up either.

I'm also pretty sure that most oil is drained back to the sump at the rear of the cam in the lifter valley, which is away from most of the crank/rods.

Also, I'd be willing to bet the amount of bleed from the lifter bores is going to be greater than the pushrods would add. Especially since pushrod oil should wind up mostly in the head, not squirting straight back down to the valley.

I could be wrong, just pointing out why it doesn't seem like an issue worth focusing on. Also, not sure if there are even hydraulic rollers available without oil through. I've not seen them, but I'm not an authority by any means either.
 

RustyRatRod

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OEM Mopar hydraulic roller lifters are VERY good. Why not get a lifter valley spider, lifter dogbones and use the OEM lifters? Simple enough to drill and tap TWO little holes in the intake valley. Over and done. I mean seriously. Why do people always make things so difficult and expensive?
 

Ted265

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How is it "better"? Besides, my heads are LA so the rockers are oiled through the rocker shafts. Any extra oil coming out the top of the lifters is wasted. In fact, worse than wasted since it dumps onto the crank and rods, increasing windage.
If your worried about excess oil to the top end you could just run non-oiling pushrods to block the feed from the lifters off. Just make sure you are getting adequate oil to the adjusters from the rocker shafts - my prw rockers have a fairly narrow range of adjustment before it starts to restrict the oil passage to the pushrod cup.
As for the springs you would need to search around by installed height and pressure as most springs advertised for a LA small block will likely have a short installed height for factory heads.
 

racerdan80

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I did a mock up of oem lifters with spider and dog bones on my 318, 67 block. The oil band came just above the lifter bore. On some blocks, drill and taping may be viable, but on mine in particular it would’ve been just an oil pressure loss. Will be going with the Morel’s when I put my motor back together.
 

Bewy

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If Hughes recommended beehive springs [ a good idea ], they can probably recommend which ones to use.
Morel hyd lifters. A lot on controversy about these, claims that you have to use oil with a certain centistoke rating if you do not want noisy lifters. Ten page thread on YellowBullet about them.
 

RustyRatRod

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I did a mock up of oem lifters with spider and dog bones on my 318, 67 block. The oil band came just above the lifter bore. On some blocks, drill and taping may be viable, but on mine in particular it would’ve been just an oil pressure loss. Will be going with the Morel’s when I put my motor back together.
Yup. You're right. I compared pictures of both and the lifter bores on the LA are a good bit shorter. It's funny though, Comp Cams offers a kit for the Cleveland engines that utilizes the Ford small block spider and dog bones. The lifter bores in those engines are the same as the windsor roller blocks.
 

kdeboy

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Yep, that thought has crossed my mind a lot in the last couple days but this plan is starting to spin out of control :) Started out as a nice streetable high performance build, then decided why not upgrade from the Action Plus/Eddy 600 on my current build, then better heads, then gee how about a kind of mellow street roller cam and all of the sudden I'm thinking about 4.56 gears, a solid roller cam, maybe a forged crank... I need to dial it back before my wife finds out and kills me, lol...
 

racerdan80

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When I did this mockup last year I believe, and I unfortunately don’t have those photos, the dog bones are supposed to rest on a recess above the bores and remain stationary. On my block (67 non roller) the dog bones rested on the rollers themselves. I could adjust preload of the spider legs on the bones with washers above and below the spider that bolted it to the valley. But because the bones would then move with the lifter, I was worried about fatigue of the spider itself. It’s made of steel, but it is thin and those dog bones are not supposed to be preloaded on the lifter and move with cam lift. So, multiple problems. Oil band coming above the bore, would have to bush the block- an expense. Possible fatigue and failure of the legs of the spider due to extra movement not designed for. I saw it as more trouble than it was worth. Either buy retro fit lifters with link bars or an oem roller block
 

BrianT

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