If you just couldn't do oil mods, what's an alternative?

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Minnesota Muscle

Minnesota Muscle

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So, putting together a bracket car, nothing super serious competitive wise, just to expose my three young teens to the racing culture and have fun getting back into the sport after being out for a long time. Building a 440/512 stroker, 650hp, 10.6 comp, solid flat tappet, planning on keeping the rpms at 6000, never over 6500 to get her to live a long happy life. I need to get a hold of 440 source and ask them what bearing clearance they're stroker kit is to see how much a HV would be needed in that respect if the bearing clearance is on the bigger side, I'll obviously check the clearance later.

My concern is I don't have a machinist that specializes in mopar anywhere near me, and I'm just not confident in drilling this, and plugging that in my block for oil mods. At most I'm kicking around the idea of drilling the pickup tube to 1/2", but I'd have to return my new pickup tube I bought, but that's of course not a big deal.

So, I guess what I'm asking, will a high pressure and/or high volume pump help band aid the lack of block mods? I've spend untold hours reading and asking, and I get every answer across the board. So, is it worth going with the HP/HV pump? Seems I get told to do the HP only, more than anything. I'll be running the 440 source's A-body clearanced 6qt pan and they reassure me I won't suck the pan dry with a HV pump racing.

I understand this question gets asked in different forms from time to time regarding more mild rebuilds, but figured I thought I would get a fresh perspective.

Thoughts?
 
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I am building a similar combo, but 440, not stroked. I am using the stock pump with the 70lb spring, more than enough for the 10psi per 1000 rpm rule.
I would concentrate on the horrendously restrictive inlet side of the pump. Use the Hemi pick up, increase the inlet passage sizes as detailed in the MP bulletins.
 
That should help.

But even without the mods, you should be able to get some really good power out of the mill.

7A3BD58F-8EC9-4EBC-8D7A-7A3C265D1691.jpeg
 
Minnesota Muscle said:
So, putting together a bracket car, nothing super serious competitive wise, just to expose my three young teens to the racing culture and have fun getting back into the sport after being out for a long time. Building a 440/512 stroker, 650hp, 10.6 comp, solid flat tappet, planning on keeping the rpms at 6000, never over 6500 to get her to live a long happy life. I need to get a hold of 440 source and ask them what bearing clearance they're stroker kit is to see how much a HV would be needed in that respect if the bearing clearance is on the bigger side, I'll obviously check the clearance later.

My concern is I don't have a machinist that specializes in mopar anywhere near me, and I'm just not confident in drilling this, and plugging that in my block for oil mods. At most I'm kicking around the idea of drilling the pickup tube to 1/2", but I'd have to return my new pickup tube I bought, but that's of course not a big deal.

So, I guess what I'm asking, will a high pressure and/or high volume pump help band aid the lack of block mods? I've spend untold hours reading and asking, and I get every answer across the board. So, is it worth going with the HP/HV pump? Seems I get told to do the HP only, more than anything. I'll be running the 440 source's A-body clearanced 6qt pan and they reassure me I won't suck the pan dry with a HV pump racing.

I understand this question gets asked in different forms from time to time regarding more mild rebuilds, but figured I thought I would get a fresh perspective.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


Use full groove mains and a HV pump. You want more oil sooner.
 
Pretty well got it covered with the full groove bearings and a 1/2 inch pickup. But I do recommend doing what mods you feel comfortable with. A windage tray and baffling the pan are always good. Are you going to be running 1/4 mile and are you planning on a hydraulic cam? Like has been said before, the real shortcomings appear on the suction side of the oil pump. If I made any single big ticket upgrade to the oiling system in a bracket car (and it's one I'd be eyeballing if I were building a stroker), it would be a Milodon single line oil system and pan. Not saying that it's necessary, but it wouldn't hurt anything either.
 
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Garrett Ellison said:
Pretty well got it covered with the full groove bearings and a 1/2 inch pickup. But I do recommend doing what mods you feel comfortable with. A windage tray and baffling the pan are always good. Are you going to be running 1/4 mile and are you planning on a hydraulic cam? Like has been said before, the real shortcomings appear on the suction side of the oil pump. If I made any single big ticket upgrade to the oiling system in a bracket car (and it's one I'd be eyeballing if I were building a stroker), it would be a Milodon single line oil system and pan. Not saying that it's necessary, but it wouldn't hurt anything either.
Click to expand...

I do have a few spare windage trays, so I plan on running one with the girdle. Yep 1/4 mile, but running a solid flat tappet.

I'll check the bulletin and see what you guys are referring to on the inlet of the pump.

Thanks for the pointers.
 
Minnesota Muscle said:
So, putting together a bracket car, nothing super serious competitive wise, just to expose my three young teens to the racing culture and have fun getting back into the sport after being out for a long time. Building a 440/512 stroker, 650hp, 10.6 comp, solid flat tappet, planning on keeping the rpms at 6000, never over 6500 to get her to live a long happy life. I need to get a hold of 440 source and ask them what bearing clearance they're stroker kit is to see how much a HV would be needed in that respect if the bearing clearance is on the bigger side, I'll obviously check the clearance later.

My concern is I don't have a machinist that specializes in mopar anywhere near me, and I'm just not confident in drilling this, and plugging that in my block for oil mods. At most I'm kicking around the idea of drilling the pickup tube to 1/2", but I'd have to return my new pickup tube I bought, but that's of course not a big deal.

So, I guess what I'm asking, will a high pressure and/or high volume pump help band aid the lack of block mods? I've spend untold hours reading and asking, and I get every answer across the board. So, is it worth going with the HP/HV pump? Seems I get told to do the HP only, more than anything. I'll be running the 440 source's A-body clearanced 6qt pan and they reassure me I won't suck the pan dry with a HV pump racing.

I understand this question gets asked in different forms from time to time regarding more mild rebuilds, but figured I thought I would get a fresh perspective.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Only oil mods i made on my street/strip 511 were drill the oil galleys #2-#5 to next size. Mine had some slag in them and drilling made a nice round hole to the mains. I used a Milodon pump, I think volume is better than pressure. I used a windage tray and thats the only mods i made. Been running 4 seasons now with 7100rpm thru the traps. Use good oil, Amsoil, Brad Penn, Driven for instance. One other thing, I used the standard size pick up tube and reamed it out a little bigger.
 
If strictly a bracket car, something like an Accusump accumulator might be a little extra insurance.
 
bluefish said:
Only oil mods i made on my street/strip 511 were drill the oil galleys #2-#5 to next size. Mine had some slag in them and drilling made a nice round hole to the mains. I used a Milodon pump, I think volume is better than pressure. I used a windage tray and thats the only mods i made. Been running 4 seasons now with 7100rpm thru the traps. Use good oil, Amsoil, Brad Penn, Driven for instance. One other thing, I used the standard size pick up tube and reamed it out a little bigger.
Click to expand...

Any idea if there is a youtube video or such on this process? What size bigger did you drill them too? I'm pretty competent, with having build a handful of mild performance engines, just would like to see it done before I go and do it.
 
Bewy said:
I am building a similar combo, but 440, not stroked. I am using the stock pump with the 70lb spring, more than enough for the 10psi per 1000 rpm rule.
I would concentrate on the horrendously restrictive inlet side of the pump. Use the Hemi pick up, increase the inlet passage sizes as detailed in the MP bulletins.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:
 
I use 1/2 groove bearings, you don't need a full groove bearing with a healthy oiling system and proper bearing clearances.
 
fishmens67 said:
I use 1/2 groove bearings, you don't need a full groove bearing with a healthy oiling system and proper bearing clearances.
Click to expand...
Only motor i did not put full groove main bearings in blew up on the dyno. No saying it was the bearings, but im superstitious.
 
Minnesota Muscle said:
Any idea if there is a youtube video or such on this process? What size bigger did you drill them too? I'm pretty competent, with having build a handful of mild performance engines, just would like to see it done before I go and do it.
Click to expand...
I honestly dont remember. i would have to look at my drill bits to know, but you just need to ream them out. I used next size bit thou.
 
bluefish said:
Only oil mods i made on my street/strip 511 were drill the oil galleys #2-#5 to next size. Mine had some slag in them and drilling made a nice round hole to the mains. I used a Milodon pump, I think volume is better than pressure. I used a windage tray and thats the only mods i made. Been running 4 seasons now with 7100rpm thru the traps. Use good oil, Amsoil, Brad Penn, Driven for instance. One other thing, I used the standard size pick up tube and reamed it out a little bigger.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.

I did find this on 440 sources website.
Addtional Images

And the drill bit they sell to accomplish it.
Engine Block Oil Passage Enlargement Drill Bit 12"-440 Source
 
Honestly, if someone would put together a semi-decent video of all the oiling mods, and show the process in detail, people, myself included would pay for that I'm sure. With as easy as it is to ruin a block in a number of different ways, I'd just like to see it done, regardless of how much I think I have a grasp on the process.
 
yellow rose said:
Use full groove mains and a HV pump. You want more oil sooner.
Click to expand...

fishmens67 said:
I use 1/2 groove bearings, you don't need a full groove bearing with a healthy oiling system and proper bearing clearances.
Click to expand...

So I double checked the main bearings that came with the 440 source stroker kit, they at 3/4 groove. I called source and they said they don't offer a full grooved bearing for 1973 and older RB engines (shallow thrust bearing engines), just the 3/4 groove. He did say that the 1974 and later (larger thrust bearing engine) they did offer a full groove mains. He couldn't tell me why that was.

Think I'll run these bearings with the HV pump. Just need to get confident on oiling mods now. He warned me about drilling out the pickup tube to 1/2" because he said I might end up grinding some of the material away for a collared pickup tube I would have to run. Because I'm putting this 512 into an a-body and I'm running they're dented 6qrt pan to clear steering linkage. So his point was by the time I grind clearance for the collared pickup tube, AND drill out for a half inch pickup, I'd be begging for breaking something.
 
I read years ago that Clevite doesn't recommend a full groove bearing.
although they sell them. lol
 
Minnesota Muscle said:
So I double checked the main bearings that came with the 440 source stroker kit, they at 3/4 groove. I called source and they said they don't offer a full grooved bearing for 1973 and older RB engines (shallow thrust bearing engines), just the 3/4 groove. He did say that the 1974 and later (larger thrust bearing engine) they did offer a full groove mains. He couldn't tell me why that was.

Think I'll run these bearings with the HV pump. Just need to get confident on oiling mods now. He warned me about drilling out the pickup tube to 1/2" because he said I might end up grinding some of the material away for a collared pickup tube I would have to run. Because I'm putting this 512 into an a-body and I'm running they're dented 6qrt pan to clear steering linkage. So his point was by the time I grind clearance for the collared pickup tube, AND drill out for a half inch pickup, I'd be begging for breaking something.
Click to expand...

So buy two sets of main bearings and use all tops. Slant six guys have done it for decades.
 
RustyRatRod said:
So buy two sets of main bearings and use all tops. Slant six guys have done it for decades.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about that. I was going to ask that very question so I called and sat on hold for over an hour with Mahle before I finally gave up and hung up.

Good to know though.
 
Minnesota Muscle said:
I was wondering about that. I was going to ask that very question so I called and sat on hold for over an hour with Mahle before I finally gave up and hung up.

Good to know though.
Click to expand...

You will have to modify the "wrong half" of the bearings to have the bearing lock tangs in the right place, but it's very simple to do.
 
Minnesota Muscle said:
I was wondering about that. I was going to ask that very question so I called and sat on hold for over an hour with Mahle before I finally gave up and hung up.

Good to know though.
Click to expand...
did you read the section on bearing grooving in the PDF I posted.
 
fishmens67 said:
did you read the section on bearing grooving in the PDF I posted.
Click to expand...

I looked that the pdf, but wasn't sure of it's intent as it brought me to the first page. I'll dig through it here in a bit when I have time after supper and read it. Appreciate the input.
 
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