Ignition woes

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dartbro

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the car is a 70 dart with a 440 and electronic ignition. Its ran fine until when i went to start it, it didnt fire until i let off the key. its very tricky to start like that. So i put in a new ignition switch and is still the same. i have changed the coil and still the same. What about the starter relay switch? Will that cause the car to fire when letting off the key.
 
It's not the ballast resistor. If it were, the engine would fire with the key in the "Start" position and die as soon as the key is released to the "Run" position. This problem is opposite that.

The ballast resistor is bypassed during cranking by wire J3, a 14-gauge brown wire connected to the "output" or "downstream" side of the ballast resistor. The other end of this wire connects to IGN2 on the ignition switch, which is live only during cranking. The purpose of this ballast bypass is to send full line voltage (already dropped by the starter motor draw) to the coil for a rapid startup. Sounds like you're not getting power to the coil during cranking, but if the engine happens to be at the right point in rotation on a cylinder when you release the key, it'll catch and run just before it quits turning. You've got a fault somewhere in J3; keep in mind it goes through the notorious bulkhead disconnect (at cavity Q). Rather than do unpleasant diagnostic surgery, it will be easier to run a new wire from the large terminal on the starter relay or the small terminal on the starter over to the coil (+) terminal. This will do exactly the same thing as the factory ballast bypass circuit: shoot full line voltage to the coil during cranking. If nothing else, you can throw on a quick test wire in this location to see if the car starts.
 
Dan must have finally gone to using drugs. DO NOT permanently add the auxiliary wire he seems to be suggesting, do so ONLY for testing.


Here's the above, simplified:

There are THREE separate circuits in the ignition switch to do with starting and running the engine

1 "start" traditionally yellow, "fires" the start relay when the key is twisted to start, AND on auto cars, when the start relay "sees a ground" in park or neutral. On newer "stick" cars with a clutch safety switch, the clutch must be down.

THIS YELLOW makes the starter "go."

2 "ignition run" , traditionally blue, also called "IGN 1" is hot ONLY with key in "run" and NOT in start. This feeds power to the "key" side of the ballast, and the regulator, one 70/ newer cars, feeds also one of the field terminals (blue) on the alternator, electric choke if used, and sometimes a couple of other things

IT IS IMPORTANT to understand that at least on many models, this goes "cold" during "start."

3 "bypass" traditionally brown, also called "IGN 2" comes directly from the ign switch, is hot ONLY in start, and goes to the coil side of the ballast resistor. It provides "hot" voltage to start the car.

DO NOT permanently run an auxiliary wire from the solenoid, the relay, or any other place to "replace" the brown bypass EXCEPT possibly for TESTING, something which the benevolent, all the time "Dan" failed to mention.

This is BECAUSE when the solenoid is not engaged, the voltage fed to the coil will "backfeed" to the solenoid, causing the coil voltage to SAG

So to sum up IT IS PERMISSIBLE to run an auxiliary wire from the coil + to a battery source DURING STARTING and FOR TESTING. Remove this wire when the engine runs.


There are about 3 ways to fix this problem.

1 Do some "unpleasant surgery?????" as Dan wants to avoid

2 Install a different start relay like this, used on later Jeeps, which DOES have an auxiliary contact in the relay:

http://oljeep.com/gw/elec/StarterRelay.jpg

You'll notice this relay looks very similar to what is on your car, except for the added "BAL" terminal, which you connect to the coil+

3 You can also connect to the small square exposed terminal on the present relay (not the big stud) OR the "yellow" push on terminal and run a DIODE in series from there to the coil + connection. Diodes have a BAND on one end which identifies the cathode, and you want the band to go towards coil connection.

To properly troubleshoot this, do the following:

Hook one probe of your meter to battery positive, and hook the other to the "key" side of the ballast resistor, or the regulator "I" terminal, or if you have a 70/ later alternator setup, to the blue field wire.

Turn the key to "run" with engine off. You are directly measuring voltage drop from the battery, through the harness, to the ignition supply buss, and you "want" to see a VERY low reading. More than .2--.3 volts (three TENTHS of a volt) means that you have some drop in the harness, and you should look into it. Your top suspects are poor connections in the bulkhead connector, at the ignition switch connector, a bad switch, or in the ammeter circuit in rare cases.

THE ABOVE affects the "run" condition.

TO TEST the "bypass" circuit, which is probably your trouble, disable the ignition by pulling the coil wire out of the distributor, and grounding it.

Hook one probe of your meter to battery positive, and the other to the coil positive terminal. Crank the engine USING THE KEY and NOT by jumpering the start relay. AGAIN you want to see a VERY low voltage, on the order of not more than a few tenths of a volt.

To double check this, hook your meter to ground at one probe, and to the coil + with the other probe, and repeat. THIS time, you should read "same as battery" voltage when cranking the engine WITH THE KEY
 
Thanks guys i am going to try these suggestions and see what happens. although I have owned this car since 1990 I have been very fortunate to have had very little trouble since this came up maybe some ecm' failures. So my trouble shooting experience is minimal . thanks again:newb:
 
Whoops, brain fart! 67Dart273 is right; you shouldn't leave the wire in place as I described, else risk constant starter engagement. Other-brand vehicles do use a wire from the starter solenoid to the coil for ballast bypass, but they do it by a dedicated terminal on the starter solenoid that's configured so as not to be able to operate the solenoid when it sees 12v on the wire connected to it.

If for whatever reason you're unable or uninterested to find and squash the bug in the J3 wire, you can effect a permanent workaround without starter backfeed by adding an ordinary 4-terminal relay under the hood, with its terminal #86 tapped into the starter relay's yellow trigger wire, terminal #85 grounded, terminal #30 connected to the large terminal on the starter relay, and terminal #87 connected to coil (+).
 
Well i cleaned the the bulk head terminals from the engine compartment side. They didnt seem to bad. I noticed some of the pins would pull out of the plug while cleaning fairly easy. So i just put them back in and made sure they would come out easy. Tried to fire it up and it would start then die as soon as i let off the key. So pulled the connectors back apart checked them again put them back in . Tried to fire it up and back to firing when letting off the key. I wasnt sure about what setting on my voltmeter to be on to check for how much draw. When i checked the brown wire on the the starter relay it read 9 volts while cranking? We have a big cruise and show this weekend and its not looking good on making it.
 
If you are changing the problem like this every time you fiddle with the bulkhead connectors, then you are probably in the very close neighbourhood of the problem! Pay attention to each and every terminal, especially J3 (14ga, brown, middle connector) and J2 (16ga, dark blue with tracer stripe, middle connector) in both sides of the bulkhead disconnect; sounds as if both of them have loose/sloppy, corroded, or otherwise imperfect connections.
 
Yup -- you're going to need to get under there and pay attention to the inside portion of those same connections/wires. I had a problem of that nature in my '71; J2 kept backing out of the inside of the connector, which would kill the car dead whenever it happened.
 
OK, I have it starting and running good ,but know it will run for a couple of minutes start cutting out and die. ecm? magnetic pickup?
 
dartbro said:
OK, I have it starting and running good ,but know it will run for a couple of minutes start cutting out and die. ecm? magnetic pickup?
Click to expand...
Verify if when it cuts out whether you still have spark or not. If no spark go back recheck all the electrical connections mentioned here & then verify you have voltage to the coil & that it's got a good trigger at the coil when cranking too.
 
Dan stated it perfectly. You have erratic connections in the bulkhead connector. If you are sure they are all clean now, leave the engine side latched, crawl under the dash and push each terminal in with needle-nose pliers. They are simple spade connectors ("57 terminals" or "Packard 57") and yours aren't latching properly in the bulkhead so they push back when you plug the connectors on.

I had your exact same original problem when I re-wired my car and thought I could skip the brown wire (bypass) since I plan to eliminate the ballast later anyway. Much to my surprise, the IGN wire doesn't get +12V when in the cranking position on the key switch. I found it would only start as I released the key. Your last problem is the same as a broken ballast resistor or a bad IGN connection.

Also check your key switch. My 64 Valiant cut out 10 miles after I bought it, so I hot-wired it to get home. I found the key switch was missing the factory connector and had multiple spade connectors that were coming loose. One of many wiring hacks I had to fix on my cars.
 
I have thrown in the towel i am going to go down and buy an hei module and convert it over. Just running out of time . Thanks for all your help
 
If you do twist the blue and brown wires together and use that as the hot wire.

I bet something isn't wired correctly is all the problems are and it has to do with the blue and brown wires.

I will get flamed for this I know.
 
mullinax95, I won't flame you. I think you feel the same as me, that the OP isn't even trying to understand our replies. All we can do is try to help.
 
I understand your post. I have pulled the bulk head connector and cleaned the the pins inside and out. I have done the things you all have mentioned . I have checked voltage at the starter relay and the coil . I get 12.3 at the big lug on the starter relay and 10.7 at the smaller lug right below the big one while cranking as well as the coil while cranking but no spark. So for some to say that I don't understand?:banghead:
 
for whatever this may be worth, i didnt read the whole thread. i recently , and i mean like a week ago, with having already done the MAD bypass, and with standard EI in my 73 duster, i would start the car, in a few minutes it would die, kapoot, like someone shut the key off, it would re-start, then die . over the next two days it gradually got worse, to the point where it would crank and crank and then finally start, like it wasnt getting fuel. i swapped a couple ballasts , no change, i swapped another ECU box in it , no luck, checked this and that over and over WTH ? i finally pulled the new ECU box, and with a vengence, i took a fricking flap disc mounted on a grinder to the mounting tabs to the ECU box, and to the spots where it bolts to the fender apron, and guess what ? WALLAH !!! BINGO that was the problem , working perfectly once again AND i plugged the old box back in after doing all this , NO WORKY, and the new(old) box didnt work the first time either

just a thought
 
dartbro said:
I understand your post. I have pulled the bulk head connector and cleaned the the pins inside and out. I have done the things you all have mentioned . I have checked voltage at the starter relay and the coil . I get 12.3 at the big lug on the starter relay and 10.7 at the smaller lug right below the big one while cranking as well as the coil while cranking but no spark. So for some to say that I don't understand?:banghead:
Click to expand...

Dartbro, IMHO, do the HEI conversion. It's the best time and money you'll spend on your hotrod, and you can kiss ignition issues good bye. One wire for ignition and one wire for the tach.

It's one of the first changes I make to a new hotrod.

Let us know how it goes.

Southernman
 
The only thing converting to an HEI module will get you (and I run one also) is a different ignition system, but if you have a WIRING PROBLEM which at this point I'd bet money on, you'll find that once you get the HEI in there, you still have the same problem.
 
67Dart273 said:
The only thing converting to an HEI module will get you (and I run one also) is a different ignition system, but if you have a WIRING PROBLEM which at this point I'd bet money on, you'll find that once you get the HEI in there, you still have the same problem.
Click to expand...
Hello gents. This thread is as old as dirt but I will try it anyway. I put a ready to run dizzy that uses a HEI type module in my 318 poly. It ran great for a whole season. I am currently going through very similar issues. After winter the car started for a minute then died. I tried to start it again and it would fire and die. I ASSumed it must be the ballast resister so I replaced it. The car fired up for a minute and died again. I then realized something was letting it run until that something got hot and failed, I figured the spark module. I replaced the module and boom I was up and running. I took the car on a 6 hour trip and it was great. The day after that trip I drove about 10 miles and it started to sputter and just died. Same dish, start, run for a minute, die. WTF? I then started to check voltage which seemed low at 10.5 volts at the coil with the ballast resistor removed obviously and the whole system was never awesome in the first place. I have had the car die at a stop sign at night because there wasn't enough voltage to keep it running so I upgraded the altenator to a later model 85amp with the little square control box and the extra field wire required, cleaned the bulk head also. I sent the distributor back to the seller and he sent me a new one. Put it in and car runs again, Victory! Plus my lights and everything are now bright. This is not the end of the nightmare. Days later the same issue, sputter, die, stranded. Then I started checking voltage more closely and I was still getting around 11 volts at the coil. The wiring to the amp guage appears very good, the ign switch is a replacement(by previous owner). I even went as far to put my original coil and points dizzy back in. That ran for about a week with no issue and then you know what, sputter, die. It fires, runs like garbage and dies quickly. At my wits end. I am convinced it is the wiring itself. The only thing that is confusing is I hooked a wire direct from the battery post to the coil post and it still runs like crap and dies. Perhaps the coil or points are already ruined so that test is pointless?
 
I don't have time this morning.......have to head to work soon. If you have no ballast, and the ignition/ coil combo is set up to be happy without one, you need to find the voltage drop problem. This will normally cause an OVER charging voltage because the voltage DROP feeds low voltage to the regulator, if you can follow that

Your main points of drop problems are
bulkhead connector.........ammeter and ammeter connections........in RARE cases the welded splice up under the dash in the black ammeter wire........the ignition switch connector......the switch itself.....and back out that path on the "run" (IGN1) wire so one more terminal through the switch connector, and one more on the bulkhead connector

Please read this MAD article which has a very good overview and simplified diagram

Catalog
 
67Dart273 said:
I don't have time this morning.......have to head to work soon. If you have no ballast, and the ignition/ coil combo is set up to be happy without one, you need to find the voltage drop problem. This will normally cause an OVER charging voltage because the voltage DROP feeds low voltage to the regulator, if you can follow that

Your main points of drop problems are
bulkhead connector.........ammeter and ammeter connections........in RARE cases the welded splice up under the dash in the black ammeter wire........the ignition switch connector......the switch itself.....and back out that path on the "run" (IGN1) wire so one more terminal through the switch connector, and one more on the bulkhead connector

Please read this MAD article which has a very good overview and simplified diagram

Catalog
Click to expand...
Familiar with the MAD material. Too bad you can't get ahold of them to buy parts. Their relay and bulk head kits would be useful.

I'm going to start testing for stray voltage in all of those ares (postive of bat to positive of keyside of ballast, etc.)
I bypass the ballast resistor when using the electronic dizzy and coil and put it in line when using the points dizzy and coil, just so we are on the same page with that.
Thanks for the quick response, impressive. Will post results.
 
67Dart273 said:
I don't have time this morning.......have to head to work soon. If you have no ballast, and the ignition/ coil combo is set up to be happy without one, you need to find the voltage drop problem. This will normally cause an OVER charging voltage because the voltage DROP feeds low voltage to the regulator, if you can follow that

Your main points of drop problems are
bulkhead connector.........ammeter and ammeter connections........in RARE cases the welded splice up under the dash in the black ammeter wire........the ignition switch connector......the switch itself.....and back out that path on the "run" (IGN1) wire so one more terminal through the switch connector, and one more on the bulkhead connector

Please read this MAD article which has a very good overview and simplified diagram

Catalog
Click to expand...
I have this similar problem ,18v at the coil positive, and the vr getting hot while running. Kinda pointing me toward the ignition switch, what is the best way to track this problem down. seem to have good continuity everywhere and I can't find nothing going to ground.
When the key is on is when the alt starts losing voltage.
I have the vr grounded good
12v on both sides of the bulkhead where the alt wire goes through and dark blue comes out with key on
This on a 67 barracuda with the old points style vr
 
I've got good voltage coming into the ammeter leads but by the time I check voltage at both the fuse leads and the ignition switch lead at the base of the steering wheel, I have about the same voltage drop. So I'm thinking the power splice under the dash. Should I try to repair/fix or get a new harness? I have not seen anything on fixing this splice, which I can't get good access.
 
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