New question. What do you suppose the difference is....if any.....between pumping capacity of the old cast iron pump and new aluminum? I ask as you may not have noticed, but radiator is located about 6 to 8 feet forward of engine and on the deck above it. Lift from top of engine to top of radiator is about 3 to 4 feet. Watching it work, have marveled that a standard engine water pump could do that without benefit of a booster or additional lift pump. Old cast iron pump gets it done. Radiator fan up top runs on hydraulic motor. It is a BIG fan and moves a lot of air.
Installing one wire alternator
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New AL vs new CI standard cooling should be about the same.
No way to know the pump manufacturers don't publish flow rates or static pressure.
Compare the vain count shape and dia on the old CI And the new AL
Quick update.........called a high end shade tree guy I know who lives up the road and he says he can get that broken bolt out.......no problem. Will see. Worst case is we pull the timing chain cover off. Since we have gone this far, one more step might not hurt to see what shape timing chain is in.
Having seen what was in there, since I need at least one new bolt anyway, plan to go back with all new bolts for water pump. Do these need to be anything special beyond standard grade 5 or 8 bolts? Looks like 3 shorter bolts that thread into the timing change cover housing, and 4 longer bolts that pass thru it and thread into the block, with coolant on the other side.
Lastly, just noticed........when it comes to timing this engine........there is no harmonic balancer. Instead, there is a 4 belt pulley and a shaft running forward to the hydraulic pump. No balancer? Perhaps the big pulley is serving that role? Hard to say it doesn't work as it has been and does. Saving grace is top end engine rpm under my use is 2,500 rpm or so. Has seen 3,000, but that is very, very rare.
Having seen what was in there, since I need at least one new bolt anyway, plan to go back with all new bolts for water pump. Do these need to be anything special beyond standard grade 5 or 8 bolts? Looks like 3 shorter bolts that thread into the timing change cover housing, and 4 longer bolts that pass thru it and thread into the block, with coolant on the other side.
Lastly, just noticed........when it comes to timing this engine........there is no harmonic balancer. Instead, there is a 4 belt pulley and a shaft running forward to the hydraulic pump. No balancer? Perhaps the big pulley is serving that role? Hard to say it doesn't work as it has been and does. Saving grace is top end engine rpm under my use is 2,500 rpm or so. Has seen 3,000, but that is very, very rare.
I'll say it again. If the pulleys that were there lined up properly with the belts, then get a pump LIKE THAT WHICH CAME OFF. The later pump is LONGER and the pulleys won't line up, plus you'll have to re-work the lower hose for the radiator as it is on the OPPOSITE side.. i don't know if they are same as what you have (may be industrial) but the early 318LA/ 273 pump is at least similar to what came off.
Update. No further along with removal of that bolt than before. Attempt to irrigate with penetrating oil no help. New theory is if some coolant got out past the threads in the block, it may have been catalyst to setup corrosion between the steel bolt and aluminum timing chain housing. Essentially, the bolt is chemically welded to the housing. Bond between the two is what is stuck.....not threads in the block. If so, may require the housing to be destroyed getting it off. Found at least one utube where the guy had to do just that.
So before going any further, decided to make sure a replacement housing was on hand. What I have now is this.............can anyone decipher the code?
Or.......is this more or less a universal part that covers the vast majority of 318 and other engines over a long period of time? One size fits all?
So before going any further, decided to make sure a replacement housing was on hand. What I have now is this.............can anyone decipher the code?
Or.......is this more or less a universal part that covers the vast majority of 318 and other engines over a long period of time? One size fits all?
Am working on the heated bolt option (welded nut or induction heat gun), but rig is currently parked (and now immobile) in a hay barn.........where just about everything is flammable. Would have to be very careful to go that route.
Meanwhile am I correct to assume the timing chain cover is more or less a universal fit over a number of years? Even if we get the bolt out, we may be pulling the timing change cover to inspect chain for wear. Gone this far, may as well take that final step. But if we can't get the bolt out.......or it gets snapped off again) and cover is trashed, need to have a backup plan ready to go.
Meanwhile am I correct to assume the timing chain cover is more or less a universal fit over a number of years? Even if we get the bolt out, we may be pulling the timing change cover to inspect chain for wear. Gone this far, may as well take that final step. But if we can't get the bolt out.......or it gets snapped off again) and cover is trashed, need to have a backup plan ready to go.
Yes and no.
Universal physical fit untill they pulled the fuel pump.
The timing marks changed and need to match your damper or whatever is used to set timing
68 and older had a bolt on market.
69 was cast in in the pass side
70 up was cast in on the driver's side
ALSO...
at some point they changed the crank seal from internal install to external install. They are still interchangable but when getting parts you need to know the change over date so you can order for instance a 78 318 crank seal for a (insert favorite car model) even though your engine is from a 69. (Years are just for example)
SB Timing Covers Info
Left is internal seal
Right is external seal
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OK guys, been messing with this much longer than I wanted to be. Found nobody interested in helping me so went into little red hen mode and did it myself. On the broken bolt......it was being held by corrosion. No amount of soaking or heat made any difference. Finally went all postal on it, hacked up the cover and was eventually able to pry it off with a crowbar. Once free of the cover, the broken bolt backed out easy with vice grips. Remarkable how many guys have to deal with that very same bolt.
So now free to start putting it all back together. In my mind......timing chain looks suspect. Is there anything special about them, or NAPA option as good as any?
So now free to start putting it all back together. In my mind......timing chain looks suspect. Is there anything special about them, or NAPA option as good as any?
There is play, probably excessive. For your application a standard timing chain would work fine.
Under my use, it only runs about 15 hours per year, max RPM around 3,000.....and half of that at low RPM......just above idle speed. My concern is it has to be 100% reliable. Which is whole point of me working on it to begin with. With suspect alternator, right now it's not. Battery losing charge just driving it around.
Under use, it has to start moving from a dead stop under a load. Worst case is having to pull a steep hill with 4 ton of hay on the back.....both of which call for a high torque response. Transmission is geared down for that use, but only reason it ever gets to 3,000 RPM is it starts to stall out under load at 2,000. Have no idea what the cam and intake manifold are.........and only know it has a mystery Carter 2BBL.
Under use, it has to start moving from a dead stop under a load. Worst case is having to pull a steep hill with 4 ton of hay on the back.....both of which call for a high torque response. Transmission is geared down for that use, but only reason it ever gets to 3,000 RPM is it starts to stall out under load at 2,000. Have no idea what the cam and intake manifold are.........and only know it has a mystery Carter 2BBL.
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OK guys, she is back from the dead. So now can tell you how this was rigged with one wire.
Now rigged with 90 amp one wire (two if you count the ground wire) Powermaster alternator from Summit Racing. The hot wire runs to a fused relay, then on to + post on battery. Other than a volt meter to monitor, that is it. Rigged it with #6 wire. The only load at all is the big array of lights up front, which amounts to 3 sets of headlights....if and when all or on. Otherwise, alternator of this size vast overkill, but if not needed, will be running easy. Rigged with #6 wire to battery and ground.
Voltmeter reading off a hot lead at fuse box. No exiting wire or other needed. Regulator is all internal.
Wiring and install was the easy part. Hour or so at most. The rest of it to get there............that took a bit longer.
Now rigged with 90 amp one wire (two if you count the ground wire) Powermaster alternator from Summit Racing. The hot wire runs to a fused relay, then on to + post on battery. Other than a volt meter to monitor, that is it. Rigged it with #6 wire. The only load at all is the big array of lights up front, which amounts to 3 sets of headlights....if and when all or on. Otherwise, alternator of this size vast overkill, but if not needed, will be running easy. Rigged with #6 wire to battery and ground.
Voltmeter reading off a hot lead at fuse box. No exiting wire or other needed. Regulator is all internal.
Wiring and install was the easy part. Hour or so at most. The rest of it to get there............that took a bit longer.
Quick update on some of the other issues discussed before. Tried mounting the 70's and up aluminum water pump......no joy. The pulleys didn't even come close to lining up. Not only that but the pump I had had mounting conflicts......as the radiator return hose tube was rubbing on a fuel pump mounting bolt. Would not be able to fit a hose over it, so was never going to fit.
The cast iron pump went back on, and new alternator pulleys were close, but not right. Put a couple thick flat washers behind mounting brackets and mounting bolt and that brought it out to about perfect. Looks like I can get a new cast iron replacement, so not an issue. Will run it and leave it as is.
Also moved the temp sensor from water pump fitting to engine block where it was supposed to be. Is working much better now. Comes alive as soon as engine warms up vs. when the radiator water starts warming up.
Appreciate all the help on bolts, sealants, and such. Wound up buttering the shafts of the deep bolts with thick layer of anti-seize so they should not corrode up again.
Appreciate the help on all of it.
The cast iron pump went back on, and new alternator pulleys were close, but not right. Put a couple thick flat washers behind mounting brackets and mounting bolt and that brought it out to about perfect. Looks like I can get a new cast iron replacement, so not an issue. Will run it and leave it as is.
Also moved the temp sensor from water pump fitting to engine block where it was supposed to be. Is working much better now. Comes alive as soon as engine warms up vs. when the radiator water starts warming up.
Appreciate all the help on bolts, sealants, and such. Wound up buttering the shafts of the deep bolts with thick layer of anti-seize so they should not corrode up again.
Appreciate the help on all of it.
Epilogue on the old AC Delco alternator. Found a very good local resource in form of a farm/home/auto store......they guy who runs it used to run an auto repair shop and still runs Mopar drag strip cars. He is well informed and store is well stocked. Not your usual auto parts store.
Took the old alternator in and he was not impressed. In addition to a redneck engineered mounting bracket, they had not wired the alternator right. It might have charged a bit, but as soon as engine shut down, was going to drain battery. We had rigged it to run thru a cutoff relay (went dead when ignition turned off), but still had the exiting wire, so may have bled battery dry thru the backdoor that way. Anyway, it was a bad design all the way around and glad to be rid of it.
Hoping the juice I get now was worth the squeeze.
Took the old alternator in and he was not impressed. In addition to a redneck engineered mounting bracket, they had not wired the alternator right. It might have charged a bit, but as soon as engine shut down, was going to drain battery. We had rigged it to run thru a cutoff relay (went dead when ignition turned off), but still had the exiting wire, so may have bled battery dry thru the backdoor that way. Anyway, it was a bad design all the way around and glad to be rid of it.
Hoping the juice I get now was worth the squeeze.
What are you talking about "the wire runs to a relay?"
If you are talking about the alternator output, that should ONLY be run DIRECT to the battery. If you are trying to use an ammeter, the meter MUST be able to handle the entire output of the alternator. In other words, nominally, a 100A or larger ammeter
If you are talking about the alternator output, that should ONLY be run DIRECT to the battery. If you are trying to use an ammeter, the meter MUST be able to handle the entire output of the alternator. In other words, nominally, a 100A or larger ammeter
We had installed an in-line relay for the old AC Delco alternator that would kill the charge wire when the ignition switch was turned off. That was to prevent that alternator from draining the battery over time. It also has a 120 amp rated fuse in it. It remains in place in lie of a fuse in the charging line.......for now.
Have been told what with this new Power Master alternator, with it's internal regulator, the relay part of it is no longer needed. Should replace it anyway as the relay requires a connection to the ignition system to work, and that connection also runs thru it's own fuse. If that gets blown the relay won't open, power won't flow. But that is how it is setup.......today.
The relay wasn't my idea, but was suggested by an electrical engineer I know. As rig gets used, a better, cleaner alternative is to simply disconnect the batter cables when rig gets parked once season is over.
Have been told what with this new Power Master alternator, with it's internal regulator, the relay part of it is no longer needed. Should replace it anyway as the relay requires a connection to the ignition system to work, and that connection also runs thru it's own fuse. If that gets blown the relay won't open, power won't flow. But that is how it is setup.......today.
The relay wasn't my idea, but was suggested by an electrical engineer I know. As rig gets used, a better, cleaner alternative is to simply disconnect the batter cables when rig gets parked once season is over.
BTW, when this rig left the factory, it probably did use the standard Mopar charging system, with external voltage regulator, ammeter, etc. When it arrived here, there was still an ammeter gauge in the dash. It was not connected to anything and was not working. I may still have it somewhere. But with a one wire system, that ammeter was replaced with volt meter from Auto Meter.
I would just install a disconnect switch and kill everything. Even back in the 60's most alternators did not "leak" much through the diodes. In the last years of my Landcruiser, sometimes that thing would sit for a month at a time without being run. If you sit longer than that, you should have a maintainer on the battery, anyhow
I would get rid of that relay. If something fails there, it could damage the alternator. Disconnecting a charging alternator is not good, and more the amperage, the worse
A bit more info on "science" of alternators from Powermaster........info that is rarely discussed, and not even mentioned in any of the product literature when you are shopping around.
Power Pulleys
So the crankshaft pulley on this beast has OD of 6.25", OD on alternator pulley is 2.65". Do the math and that is 2.35 x 1,000 engine idle speed = alternator shaft speed of 2,350 RPM. For street car use, PM recommends 3:1 and if you sit idling much, more wouldn't hurt. I'm way below that and my engine RPM's are too. I'd probably benefit from a 5:1 ratio, but not in the cards.
As per Powermaster tech support, this alternator kicks in to start charging at around 1,800 alternator RPM, and doesn't reach rated speed until around 2,400. At idle, this alternator won't be producing much more than 40 to 50 amps if that. In order to get this alternator up to the 90 rated amps, engine would have to be running at around 3,500 RPM, which under my use, it never has.
As a kid, I can remember driving some old farm trucks. Those trucks still only had low output generators. Hauling grain at night, at idle, headlights would dim to almost nothing. Load being greater than output. Had I been the least bit curious, I would have looked into it to know why. Now that it matters, I've finding out why. For this rig, if the electrical loads were heavier, it might warrant looking into a way to gear this up thru a pulley amplification system. This 90 amp alternator may be the min of what I needed. The poorly setup AC Delco of only 60 amps or so, just not hacking it.
Power Pulleys
So the crankshaft pulley on this beast has OD of 6.25", OD on alternator pulley is 2.65". Do the math and that is 2.35 x 1,000 engine idle speed = alternator shaft speed of 2,350 RPM. For street car use, PM recommends 3:1 and if you sit idling much, more wouldn't hurt. I'm way below that and my engine RPM's are too. I'd probably benefit from a 5:1 ratio, but not in the cards.
As per Powermaster tech support, this alternator kicks in to start charging at around 1,800 alternator RPM, and doesn't reach rated speed until around 2,400. At idle, this alternator won't be producing much more than 40 to 50 amps if that. In order to get this alternator up to the 90 rated amps, engine would have to be running at around 3,500 RPM, which under my use, it never has.
As a kid, I can remember driving some old farm trucks. Those trucks still only had low output generators. Hauling grain at night, at idle, headlights would dim to almost nothing. Load being greater than output. Had I been the least bit curious, I would have looked into it to know why. Now that it matters, I've finding out why. For this rig, if the electrical loads were heavier, it might warrant looking into a way to gear this up thru a pulley amplification system. This 90 amp alternator may be the min of what I needed. The poorly setup AC Delco of only 60 amps or so, just not hacking it.
Here is the other thing about alternator output. Some alternators, REGARDLESS of their maximum output, put out more current at lower RPM than some others of higher output ratings. This means that "bigger is not always better." The other part of this problem, other than pulley ratio, is to compare some various alternator RPM output curves. In the old days we had catalogs that showed that. I have no idea where you get that now, unless the various suppliers can produce them
This "kicking in" at some RPM is just one more reason why I am not particularly in love with "one wire." having said that, I've got a little Delco one wire on my old Farmall. It has nothing except the starter and a couple of seldom used lamps
This "kicking in" at some RPM is just one more reason why I am not particularly in love with "one wire." having said that, I've got a little Delco one wire on my old Farmall. It has nothing except the starter and a couple of seldom used lamps
See how it goes first. Rigging up a properly engineered for the rpm intermediate shaft, while not imposable is a bunch of work.
Or find a larger dia crank pulley. I know you have a PTO but I bet they are out there. Would speed up the wp a bit too
The alt will only produce as much current as is needed untill it can't produce anymore for the shaft rpm (it's like a HP curve, you can keep adding load but it won't produce anymore power)
Very helpful information. As noted on Powermaster website data, a lot of misconceptions about how alternators work. Those with experience and the engineers among us know all this, (power curves and such) but average users don't. Use for my application is somewhat unique as even in normal conditions, engine runs fast and slow, and as setup is only going to do much charging when running fast. Good news is it only has to top up battery for starting, and when running at night, keep up with the big array of front lights. But that is one of times when engine is running 1,500 to 2,000 RPM's. And knowing what is needed, operator can keep it geared down to keep engine RPM's up. Running fast not a bad thing......for a lot of reasons.
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