Is it possible to get my 74 Duster slop free steering

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Steve Agrella

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I have apron 1/2 in of play in either direction, the steering box cannot be adjusted any tighter without binding.
Can this car be made to be slop free like the newer cars
 
it should be slop free if everything is in good repair?
May have to enlist a friend to crank the wheel while you crawl
underneath too see where things are sloppy?
 
Easy! Make sure your front suspension is tight, lower ball joints, "C" body tie rod ends and adjusters, tight pitman arm and Idler arm. If it still sloppy send your box to Firm Feel and it will come back better than new.
 
Possibilities.........rebuild steering box, rebuild/replace steering coupler, make sure pitman arm is good, inspect 'K" member for broken welds, guesset the box mount to remove flex... it is possible to get good steering out of the factory stuff, research "The Green Brick" Ehrenberg did several articles on tightening up steering in his Valiant

OR **** can all of that and go rack and pinion....done right it's good, done wrong and it will present ITS own problems
 
The other alternative is spring for the Borgenson gear box and you'll be very happy. I know it's not cheap, but I have it in my 71 cuda and it is head and shoulders above the original box. Prior to the borg box I had a steer and gear police box and it was better than what I had originally in the cuda, but not as good as the Borgenson.
 
I have apron 1/2 in of play in either direction, the steering box cannot be adjusted any tighter without binding.
Can this car be made to be slop free like the newer cars

A 1/2” in either direction? That’s not
much more than the standard on-center spot for a worm and sector box. My brand new flaming river manual steering box isn’t much better than that. And I’ve got a fully welded and gusseted K member, solid tie rod adjuster sleeves, delrin and poly bushings and a u-joint style steering coupler. Maybe a little play in the tie rod ends because I haven’t gone to heims there, but that’s about it.

And no, you can’t completely get rid of the on center dead spot to make it like a new car. Even a brand new worm and sector box will have an on center dead spot. That’s just the nature of the design. New cars use a rack and pinion.

You can either spend 5 grand to convert to a coil over front end with a rack and pinion, try and rig the stock suspension for a rack and pinion and hammer your bump steer and Ackerman, or just get used to it. Nothing wrong with it if the play isn’t excessive.
 
2 cents worth.....

I love my PST front end.


As you were gentlemen!
 
2 cents worth.....

I love my PST front end.


As you were gentlemen!

Hey I love my QA1, PST, SPC, Bergman Autocraft, Firm Feel, US Cartool and Flaming River front end too. :D

But you can’t make a worm and sector steering box feel like a rack and pinion, they’re just different animals.
 
I have apron 1/2 in of play in either direction, the steering box cannot be adjusted any tighter without binding.
Can this car be made to be slop free like the newer cars
Is this a power-steering box?
If yes is this with engine off or with engine running.
Do you still have the OEM connector between the box and the steering shaft?

Not all Borgeson purchasers are happy,

I rebuilt my P/S box and am real happy with it.
 
Yes, PS, with engine running and yes stock steering shaft, everything in the front suspension is new, no cracks or breaks around the box everything is tight as it going to get.
Looks like the steering box is new or rebuilt befor I purchased the car
 
The steering coupler has 2 little shoes in it that compensate for any angular deflection between the box and the shaft. They can be installed the correct way or the wrong way. If wrong there will be quite a bit of slop introduced right there.
With the P/S box you have to understand how the Mopar control valve, and how the reaction springs, work.
 
Before you start throwing money at this, go over the thing from the steering wheel to the tires. Several good comments above. Get a friend. Have them move the wheel back and forth, various speeds, and various amounts, but mostly just "taking up the play" and a bit more.

Start with the wheel to the steering coupler. Eyeball the upper shaft entering the coupler and the coupler itself. As the column shaft moves there should be ZERO visible play between the shaft and coupler.

Next look at the coupler body and the shaft into the box. Same deal, zero play.

Now look at the box and the K member. Does the box move on the K? "Should not!!" Have your helper move further, and examine the K box mount and the K proper. Maybe the welds are cracked, etc

Next look at the steering coupler and the pitman shaft. Should be very very little play between the two, there might be a little.

Next, look for play in the pitman end ball. There should be ZERO? delay/ play between pitman arm movement and the center link movement.

Now check all 4 tie rod ends, same way.

Then check the idler. There should be VERY little up/ down movement of the idler, and no play left/ right in the ball end to center link.

Don't discount tires. When driving, poor handling tires can make it SEEM like there is play. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of difference in tires.

Regardless of people who claim "these are old cars" "handle poorly" and the other bla bla, my car was a typical clapped out stocker. New parts, better tires, great big T bars and conversion to factory anti roll bar made a MARVELOUS difference in the way the thing goes around corners.
 
Before you start throwing money at this, go over the thing from the steering wheel to the tires. Several good comments above. Get a friend. Have them move the wheel back and forth, various speeds, and various amounts, but mostly just "taking up the play" and a bit more.

Start with the wheel to the steering coupler. Eyeball the upper shaft entering the coupler and the coupler itself. As the column shaft moves there should be ZERO visible play between the shaft and coupler.

Next look at the coupler body and the shaft into the box. Same deal, zero play.

Now look at the box and the K member. Does the box move on the K? "Should not!!" Have your helper move further, and examine the K box mount and the K proper. Maybe the welds are cracked, etc

Next look at the steering coupler and the pitman shaft. Should be very very little play between the two, there might be a little.

Next, look for play in the pitman end ball. There should be ZERO? delay/ play between pitman arm movement and the center link movement.

Now check all 4 tie rod ends, same way.

Then check the idler. There should be VERY little up/ down movement of the idler, and no play left/ right in the ball end to center link.

Don't discount tires. When driving, poor handling tires can make it SEEM like there is play. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of difference in tires.

Regardless of people who claim "these are old cars" "handle poorly" and the other bla bla, my car was a typical clapped out stocker. New parts, better tires, great big T bars and conversion to factory anti roll bar made a MARVELOUS difference in the way the thing goes around corners.

Great advice, and I totally agree.

My point was just that while these cars are capable of handing very well if everything is in good repair, especially with some key upgrades, there are also things that are just different compared to a new car. The ball and sector steering boxes just feel and behave a little differently than a rack and pinion, even when they’re 100%.

That doesn’t mean the car handles worse, just that it’s going to feel a little different because that on center spot is just inherent in the design. It certainly gets worse with worn components and that is worth checking, but totally eliminating it won’t happen even with everything in perfect repair.
 
I had the front end completely overhauled I was a bit perplexed that there was still a bit of slop. I’ll get used to it, thanks for the replies
 
Just keep in mind, the set screw on the gear box is not meant to remove slop from the steering wheel itself. Its purpose is to adjust for bearing wear on the sector shaft, and nothing more. If that has a positive effect on the steering play, then you got a side benefit.

There is also a step by step outline in the FSM of exactly how to do it. You don't just loosen the lock nut and tighten down on the screw. There is a correct procedure.
 
Similar to George Thorogood who drinks alone, I usually work alone so.....at the beginning of driving season I open the hood, bend over the fender and rotate the steering shaft at the end of the column back and forth to judge whether there is extra play. There is always a little play but with my 2* caster and good radials it doesn't matter much.
I think a lot of people assume their 50 year old car should be just like their 2018 Honda and it just ain't gonna happen.
 
Similar to George Thorogood who drinks alone, I usually work alone so.....at the beginning of driving season I open the hood, bend over the fender and rotate the steering shaft at the end of the column back and forth to judge whether there is extra play. There is always a little play but with my 2* caster and good radials it doesn't matter much.
I think a lot of people assume their 50 year old car should be just like their 2018 Honda and it just ain't gonna happen.

+2* caster isn't even that much. More is better, I think +3* to +5* is a good range for most folks with a street car on radial tires. I've run as much as +8*, and have my car set now for +6.5*. You get used to the heavier turning effort, I backed mine down to +6* and then went back up.

You can make one of these cars perform similar to a new car. Handling as far as the numbers go, like skid pan lateral g ratings, can actually be better depending on the set up. Awhile back they ran the Hotchkis Challenger vs a 2010 SRT8 Challenger. The Hotchkis Challenger was able to put down a better skid pad number than the 2010 SRT8 (.93g vs .84), and was pretty close in a lot of the other comparisons as far as performance numbers go.

The experience behind the wheel is completely different though. You can get to the same place, but how you get there is a completely different experience.

2010 Dodge Challenger SRT-8 vs. 1970 Dodge Challenger
 
A bodies have a rich racing heritage of all kinda roundy round and road racing. It's not like they cannot be made to handle. Our buddy @autoxcuda is the perfect example. There was also another guy on here that routinely spanked *** on the road courses with his big block A body. Does anybody remember who he is? He was puttin the hurt on Vipers and Vettes and such.
 
I won so much with a mopar A body on a fast 1/2 mile asphalt track, that they outlawed the mopar engine outright, in the off season after we won the track championship. The torsion bar suspension is superior to most others, especially metric chevys. My dodge STILL holds the track record there.
 
I had the front end completely overhauled I was a bit perplexed that there was still a bit of slop. I’ll get used to it, thanks for the replies
I think you guys lost Steve at post 15. Seems to me, he already decided not to check things out.
 
I’m still here and still listening, you guys are a wealth of knowledge I truly appreciate all of the replies however consensus seem to indicate my car is pretty much mormal so be it, it goes strait just feels a bit weird to me right now.
 
I’m still here and still listening, you guys are a wealth of knowledge I truly appreciate all of the replies however consensus seem to indicate my car is pretty much mormal so be it, it goes strait just feels a bit weird to me right now.

67Dart273 gave an excellent breakdown of things to check. The only thing not listed is the alignment. It doesn't play a big part in slop in the steering, but it has a BIG effect on how everything feels. If everything in the front suspension is new, and it "feels weird", the alignment may be suspect. Do you know your specs?

If everything listed by 67Dart273 checks out, and the alignment is good, then what you're feeling is probably just the on-center spot.
 
+2* caster isn't even that much. More is better, I think +3* to +5* is a good range for most folks with a street car on radial tires. I've run as much as +8*, and have my car set now for +6.5*. You get used to the heavier turning effort, I backed mine down to +6* and then went back up.
2010 Dodge Challenger SRT-8 vs. 1970 Dodge Challenger

Yeah well....I actually drive my old cars, it's the best part, sometimes to other states at the drop of a hat. Don't be offended but not everyone is out to set track records. :)
I set my 68 up years ago using Tom Condran's book as a guide and it's worked out well for ME. 73-76 K member and discs, .920 T-bars with 16:1 manual steering. Great feel as long as I'm not parking. UCA's have Moog offset bushings and I doubt they would adjust to 8* caster anyway.
 
Yeah well....I actually drive my old cars, it's the best part, sometimes to other states at the drop of a hat. Don't be offended but not everyone is out to set track records. :)
I set my 68 up years ago using Tom Condran's book as a guide and it's worked out well for ME. 73-76 K member and discs, .920 T-bars with 16:1 manual steering. Great feel as long as I'm not parking. UCA's have Moog offset bushings and I doubt they would adjust to 8* caster anyway.

Wow. So, you know that I don't "actually drive my car" how? You know what they say about assumptions.

My Duster is the newest model year car that I own, and my daily driver. I drive it about 10,000 miles a year, give or take. I commute to work in it, I get groceries in it, well, pretty much everything because it's either my Duster or my '71 Ford F100 4x4, those are my running vehicles at the moment. And yes, I put 10k miles a year on it with 1.12" torsion bars, 13" brakes from DoctorDiff, Hotchkis shocks, Helwig sway bars, and 16:1 manual steering with +6.5* of caster and 275/35/18 tires up front.

Tom Condran's book was great 19 years ago when it was published. I have it too, but you also have to remember that when that book was written the parts available to set up the suspension on these cars were extremely limited. A lot has happened since then- tires and wheel options are better, shock choices are MUCH better, more torsion bar sizes are available, there's a wide selection of tubular control arms, brakes, etc. Frankly, you can do a lot better with the parts available now than what was described in Tom's book. It's not that it isn't relevant, but it's pretty outdated with today's aftermarket parts. Even with the first version of updated suspension on my Challenger 10 years ago I was well above and beyond the recommendations in that book, and I put 70k street miles on that car.

You like how your car is set up, you "actually drive it", that's great. But +2* of caster is underwhelming, and even street cars benefit from more.
 
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