Is this a bad idea?

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Rogerdodger

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I have a 68 dart with a 318, 4 speed manual, and 3.21 rear ratio. The car has a rear axle, K member, and suspension out of a 73 duster. I feel like at 45 or 50 mph I should be shifting to a higher gear but I am already in 4th. It is not a race car but I do some highway driving. The question is, would it be a mistake to swap to an OD 4 speed . I would be disappointed to go through the trouble of swapping the tranny only to find out it was a big oops. If anyone has done this and can give me your thoughts on this I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks in advance.
 
Don't use a od unless you change the rear gear to a taller gear. (like 3.73-4.10) The od takes a couple different parts to work.
 
Apparently A833’s with Gear Vendors are badass to drive. I agree that you would need more gear with any OD. I think GV has a calculator on their site.
 
I don't know something doesn't sound quite right. What size is your back tires, and what is your tac say at 60 mph. My 340 with 323s and four-speed would do 85 or 90 in 3rd gear no problem. And would just purr at 70 or 75 in fourth gear.
 
I have a 68 dart with a 318, 4 speed manual, and 3.21 rear ratio. The car has a rear axle, K member, and suspension out of a 73 duster. I feel like at 45 or 50 mph I should be shifting to a higher gear but I am already in 4th. It is not a race car but I do some highway driving. The question is, would it be a mistake to swap to an OD 4 speed . I would be disappointed to go through the trouble of swapping the tranny only to find out it was a big oops. If anyone has done this and can give me your thoughts on this I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks in advance.


Do you have a tach? If so, what does it say? If not, why not?
 
Don't use a od unless you change the rear gear to a taller gear. (like 3.73-4.10) The od takes a couple different parts to work.

Yes you will be disappointed unless you do this ^^^^^^.
 
I don't know something doesn't sound quite right. What size is your back tires, and what is your tac say at 60 mph. My 340 with 323s and four-speed would do 85 or 90 in 3rd gear no problem. And would just purr at 70 or 75 in fourth gear.

I agree. I ran my Duster with an 833 4 speed for a few years with a 3.55 rear end ratio and 26” tall rear tires. I would regularly commute on the freeway like that, at 3,400 rpm it would do almost 75 mph on the freeway. In third that same rpm is about 55.

Don’t get me wrong, 3,400 rpm does not sound like idle. But it doesn’t sound like a shift point either.
 
I have a 68 dart with a 318, 4 speed manual, and 3.21 rear ratio. The car has a rear axle, K member, and suspension out of a 73 duster. I feel like at 45 or 50 mph I should be shifting to a higher gear but I am already in 4th. It is not a race car but I do some highway driving. The question is, would it be a mistake to swap to an OD 4 speed . I would be disappointed to go through the trouble of swapping the tranny only to find out it was a big oops. If anyone has done this and can give me your thoughts on this I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks in advance.

Taking into account that it’s not a race car, my suggestion would be to just up the gears in the differential.
Gear Vendors overdrives are thousands, and some cars even have to have the floor cut and modified.
Then there’s also the expense of having the driveshaft shortened and rebalanced.
Just put some taller gears in it.
Just my opinion.
 
Gear ratio X’s OD ratio = new ratio
3.21 X .71 (If that is your OD ratio) = 2.279 (2.28 rounded)
4.10 X .71 = 2.91.
 
Gear ratio X’s OD ratio = new ratio
3.21 X .71 (If that is your OD ratio) = 2.279 (2.28 rounded)
4.10 X .71 = 2.91.
I am faced with the same dilemma of OD versus non OD, but my car has a 2.xx:1 differential ratio, 13" tires, and a 273 V8. Since I have all the parts, I will install the non-OD 833 first instead of the OEM 3 speed. If I am not satisfied with the 833, then I will install the 833OD.

In terms of engine rpm, going 70 mph on the highway was about 2,000 rpm in my Honda recently; nice and relaxed. I intend to do more highway driving in the Dart than local roads, but I still want the car to be able to move with some gutso on my way to the highway.
 
As YR said above, do you have a tach? If not, you’ll need to at least borrow one. See what your rpm’s are at Hwy speed.

The OD 4spd manual trans has a deep first gear that will allow the car to take off really quick. 2nd & 3rd are normal and 4th drops pretty good. If your not in a good rpm area when you’re getting to the cruise speed, it will feel sluggish.
I am faced with the same dilemma of OD versus non OD, but my car has a 2.xx:1 differential ratio, 13" tires, and a 273 V8. Since I have all the parts, I will install the non-OD 833 first instead of the OEM 3 speed. If I am not satisfied with the 833, then I will install the 833OD.

In terms of engine rpm, going 70 mph on the highway was about 2,000 rpm in my Honda recently; nice and relaxed. I intend to do more highway driving in the Dart than local roads, but I still want the car to be able to move with some gutso on my way to the highway.
 
There were many Aspens and Volares factory equipped with the 833 OD. It was also used in Feather Dusters and Dart Lites. I guarantee you those cars did not have steep gears.

In the early 80s I worked on a Volare station wagon with a 225 /6 and the floor shift OD. it was a coworkers and he bought it used CHEAP. It had veen used as a delivery vehicle, and only about 3 yrs old but had 100k on the clock. He only bought it because I agreed to fix it. It was parked in a garage downtown and driving it the 20 miles home from work, it wouldn't go over 35-40 mph. Compression check showed it had 2 dead cylinders so I yanked the head, sent it out for a valve job, (2 burned exhaust valves), did a 4 wheel brake job, 4 shocks, oil, grease, and rebuilt the 2 barrel BBD Carter carb.

Drove it back to work about 10 days later and it was like a new car, a real pleasure to drive. For awhile, every time we passed in the halls at work he would thank me and shake my hand.

3.21 with OD? DO IT!!! Not everyone builds a car for maximum acceleration.
 
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There were many Aspens and Volares factory equipped with the 833 OD. It was also used in Feather Dusters and Dart Lites. I guarantee you those cars did not have steep gears.

In the early 80s I worked on a Volare station wagon with a 225 /6 and the floor shift OD. it was a coworkers and he bought it used CHEAP. It had veen used as a delivery vehicle, and only about 3 yrs old but had 100k on the clock. He only bought it because I agreed to fix it. It was parked in a garage downtown and driving it the 20 miles home from work, it wouldn't go over 35-40 mph. Compression check showed it had 2 dead cylinders so I yanked the head, sent it out for a valve job, (2 burned exhaust valves), did a 4 wheel brake job, 4 shocks, oil, grease, and rebuilt the 2 barrel BBD Carter carb.

Drove it back to work about 10 days later and it was like a new car, a real pleadure to drive. For awhile, every time we passed in the halls at work he would thank me and shake my hand.

3.21 with OD? DO IT!!! Not everyone builds a car for maximum acceleration.

It's not always about max acceleration. It's about getting the engine in it's most efficient operating power band. Lugging along at 1500 RPM at 70 MPH ain't it.

Too many people think getting the engine at the lowest possible RPM at cruise speed is the way to go. It's not. It's all about the engine being in its power band......or just at the beginning. Too low a cruise RPM and the first head wind or tiny hill and you're downshifting. That's not very efficient. Did the factories do it? Yup. Was it right? No way for every application. DO the math. Your final drive ratio with an 833 OD and 4.10 gears is a 2.99. With a 3.21 gear your final ratio is 2.34. That's gettin stupid. Max acceleration hasn't a thing to do with what I'm talking about here. It's about efficiency.
 
I have a '73 Duster with an 833OD, 2.76 gears and 26" tires. I recently swapped a 5.7 hemi into it and it goes like a bat outta hell. At 80 mph it's taching about 2100 rpm. Has gobs of low end torque. I'm going to swap to 3.23 gears when I put a sure-grip in it.
 
Thank you all for your input! Sound like there are a lot of mixed reviews on this subject. My dart runs at 2350 rpm at 55 and 2780 at 65 verses a little over 2000 rpm at 65 with the OD tranny (calculated). I have 25.2" tires and 3.21 rear on the beast. I'm not sure what the power range is for the 318 4 barrel. Maybe 2000 rpm will lug the engine on a hill at 65 mph.
 
I am faced with the same dilemma of OD versus non OD, but my car has a 2.xx:1 differential ratio, 13" tires, and a 273 V8. Since I have all the parts, I will install the non-OD 833 first instead of the OEM 3 speed. If I am not satisfied with the 833, then I will install the 833OD.

In terms of engine rpm, going 70 mph on the highway was about 2,000 rpm in my Honda recently; nice and relaxed. I intend to do more highway driving in the Dart than local roads, but I still want the car to be able to move with some gutso on my way to the highway.


Wouldn't the end result still be the same? The 3 speed and 4 speed's final ratio is 1:1, so the rpms wouldn't be any different when in top gear. All you would be gaining is an extra gear 'in the middle'. Unless I read your post wrong...
 
@Rogerdodger

It's not always about max acceleration. It's about getting the engine in it's most efficient operating power band. Lugging along at 1500 RPM at 70 MPH ain't it.

Too many people think getting the engine at the lowest possible RPM at cruise speed is the way to go. It's not. It's all about the engine being in its power band......or just at the beginning. Too low a cruise RPM and the first head wind or tiny hill and you're downshifting. That's not very efficient. Did the factories do it? Yup. Was it right? No way for every application. DO the math. Your final drive ratio with an 833 OD and 4.10 gears is a 2.99. With a 3.21 gear your final ratio is 2.34. That's gettin stupid. Max acceleration hasn't a thing to do with what I'm talking about here. It's about efficiency.

What RRR said above and that really is the trick.
If you can tune an engine really well, carb and ignition, chugging along at a low rpm and burning up all of the air and fuel will get you maximum mileage results.

While chugging along @ 70/75 at a super low rpm is great one way, RRR is right in saying a mild upgrade hill can have you down shifting. I experience this is my 2018 HEMI RAM 1500. It pops out of 8th gear on mile up grades. The mileage obtained over all was still very good. But I’ll tell you that when I was coming down the mountain the mileage was insane. There’s the catch 22.

If your driving a very flat landscape, your mileage will be great even though your engine isn’t making the best amount of power in the best power range. It’s also probably the least efficient. (I’m not 100% on that.)

This is where the trick of tuning your engine & carb to be the most fuel efficient it can be at the cruise rpm. You can do this with the aid of a 02 sensor, reading your plugs for that light brown ring to be up as high as possible on the porcelain, opening up the plug gaps a little bit and even more with a multiple spark box to help insure all of the fuel is used to make power.

Address every aspect from the air cleaners opening to the exhaust for easy breathing in and out with the max burning of the air and fuel and you will do well for mileage.

Also pay attention to the mixture as you travel up hill to make sure the enrichment is right otherwise the efficiency will drop requiring more pedal pushing to do the job needed.

Good luck on your tuning efforts. I often enjoyed the challenge of doing this.
 
Wouldn't the end result still be the same? The 3 speed and 4 speed's final ratio is 1:1, so the rpms wouldn't be any different when in top gear. All you would be gaining is an extra gear 'in the middle'. Unless I read your post wrong...
The automatic trans will consume more energy (fuel) due to converter slippage. Lock up transmissions have an edge over non lock up transmissions and manuals have an edge over LU converters. The power is more directly connected. This changes as the transmissions become more modern. But the old school transmissions that we use, the above applies.
 
I agree with you. I just didn't see he him say he was starting with an auto. Just going from a 3 speed to a 4 speed, I assumed the 3 speed was a manual.
 
That could be the case though I assumed an automatic... or course... LOL.
But yea! Both manual trans would have that 1:1 final drive for no real final drive performance or mileage gains.
 
Thank you all for your input! Sound like there are a lot of mixed reviews on this subject.
My dart runs at 2350 rpm at 55 and 2780 at 65
verses a little over 2000 rpm at 65 with the OD tranny (calculated). I have 25.2" tires and 3.21 rear on the beast. I'm not sure what the power range is for the 318 4 barrel. Maybe 2000 rpm will lug the engine on a hill at 65 mph.

Both of your first examples points to 3.21s
This is a common gear and very good general gear for a 318.
Here are the ratios of your various Mopar transmissions;

2.95-1.83-1.00 A903-V8
3.22-1.84-1.00 A903-slanty
3.18-1.83-1.00 A250
3.08-1.70-1.00 A230-slanty
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73 A833od

2.55-1.49-1.00 A230V-8
As you can see;
all of them except one have very similar starter gears, and
all have a 1.00 direct.
The difference among these is mostly where the Second gear is positioned; I lined them up with the Second gears progressing from slanty-friendly to V8-friendly.
And also as you can see, the A833 od is practically identical to the A230/slanty but with one additional gear.

Now, in my 68 Barracuda, I have run that od box behind a 1973 smoggerteen, with the only non-stock parts being a big TQ, and headers/free-flowing exhaust. The long block was stock but freshened. AND
I ran it with 2.76s, 3.23s, 3.55s, 3.91s, 4.30s and 4.88s..... cuz with a GVod sometimes behind it, you can run anything.
The 140 psi 318 pulled them all, and complained about nothing.
I really liked the 2.76s, and stuffing it into too high a gear, then flooring it and grooving to the roar of the mighty Thermoquad. So as to cruise-power, the 318 don't much care;
With 4.30s x.73od x.78 GVod, the final drive comes to 2.45s ; and 65mph with 25.2 tires, that would come to 2120 at zero-slip, and a good 318 near to sealevel, can easily handle that. With your 3.21s; 65mph would be 2030rpm(in overdrive)/ no problem.
I ran it with 2.76 and the .73 od, for 65=1750/no problem. The starter is 3.21 x3.09=9.92/ no problem .

If you want to learn where your 318 likes to run; put a vacuum gauge on it, and put it into neutral and slowly rev it up until the gauge plateaus. The lowest rpm, that the gauge reads the highest, should be your minimum cruise rpm.
Now, while it's there, start advancing the ignition, keeping the rpm always the same. Keep pulling in more timing until the rpm no longer increases. Now read the timing at that rpm. Finally subtract 3 degrees for load compensation, and that is your proper timing at that cruise-rpm.
Now; GOOD LUCK building a timing curve to meet that need. But if you can, you will get fantastic point to point fuel mileage.

Finally, the short-tail A833od can be had with two different mainshafts; Either the 904 sized one or the 727 sized one. So when you go shopping, make sure you get one to fit your driveshaft, so you don't get an added surprise cost. It's also best to get the matching bellhouse, TO fork, and shift levers. Not to mention you will need a H-pattern shifter with reverse on it. The Z-bar may need to be modified.
Don't forget to put oil in it.lol

BTW-1
When guys talk about efficiency, we are talking about stock timing at low rpm.
Your 318 if still the Hi-compression variant, might like 48 degrees or more of cruise timing at 2400rpm
A lo-compression 318 might like 56 degrees
Those numbers are impossible to get with the factory parts. You'd be lucky to see 35*@2400.
When you cruise at ever slower rpms, the timing gets ever harder to find. By 2000 you cannot still get there no how, with the factory type parts, you will need a stand-alone timing-box, to make up the difference.
One combo I tried cruised at 65= less than 1600rpm/ 85=2100, and made 4-cylinder EFI type fuel-mileage...... because I gave her the timing she craved.
BTW-2
If you do not or cannot give your 318 the timing she wants or needs, your fuel-economy can easily go backwards when cruising at a lower rpm. The factory figured out how to make 2.45s work, and eventually even 2.20s. I ran the equivalent of 1.97s, with a clutch! Ok I'll admit I cheated lol, using a double overdrive with 3.55s. the starter gear was still 10.97/ funtastic, off the line, lol.
 
It may be because you are used to modern vehicles I felt the same way with my Dart with a 318 and 3:91s it would be at 3000 rpm at like 60 MPH I could slow down and make a left turn and never shift out of 4th LOL! It was almost like a tractor
 
I have a '73 Duster with an 833OD, 2.76 gears and 26" tires. I recently swapped a 5.7 hemi into it and it goes like a bat outta hell. At 80 mph it's taching about 2100 rpm. Has gobs of low end torque. I'm going to swap to 3.23 gears when I put a sure-grip in it.

That's an apples to oranges comparison from something with a carburetor, distributor and no computer or EFI.
 
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