LA 318 w/ roller lifters&cam - Waste Of Time?

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You will never get a 349 together for 370 bucks, or even close. A good running 360 that does NOT need to be rebuilt can be had between 350-500. I personally bought a 89 maxi van with 116,000 miles for 350.00. Ran great, pulled the pan and it was very clean and great shape. Could tell by driving it before buying it. I got a motor (308 heads and roller cam), tranny, radiator and got some money back when I junked that heavy maxi!!!! Don't get me wrong, I love 318's, but for the money they are best left and built as 318's. Each to their own, I guess...
 
Personally I'd rather have a strong well built 318 than a 349, or a cheaply built 390. I've read the posts on the 349. I haven't tried one myself because the results are frankly not worth the money when I can just use a 360. They make sense if you can't get any 360s - that's not the case here. They make sense if you own a machine shop or can do everything yourself. Again - not the case. I will always prefer longer stroke - as long as it's solid return on investment. I don;t like the parts choices in the cheapest 4" kits - so again - not enough return on investment for my taste. It's been my experience that the "it's really easy and cheap" engine threads do not have anyone come back and say "I followed this exact build and got 'X' for 'y' money and I'm happy."
It's your car, your money, and your engine so ultimately it's all up to you.
 
I don't think he was asserting that he can build a 349 for $370...he only stated that any rebuild he does will cost, and adding cubic inches will only add about $500 between building a 349 or a 360...with a 390 tipping the cost to $1550 more just because of the parts. While you can buy a running 360 for $350-$500 or so, I think he actually wants to rebuild the engine for the experience.

...Each to their own, I guess...
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This is correct.
 
Once again for those chiming in late, I was digging for experience or opinions on several build options to my 318 short block, as I have already worked the top end with 360 heads, DP intake and a comp cam. I have no interest in purchasing a 360 short block because that would cost additional money, before I machine it, and I would still have to add pistons, maybe rods too. And I like the idea of keeping the original block.

The 349 option was basically just adding a 360 crank with 318 mains for $349 (cheaper than the $370 I mentioned earlier ) and a cast 318 piston with 1.685" compression height that puts the flat top about 0.030" in the bore, up from the 0.085" it currently is, and puts CR right at about 9.7. So all other things being equal, I am just adding a crank, gaining needed torque in a 318 as well as displacement.


Crank here,
http://www.moparsupercenter.com/crankshaft-cast-iron-3-58-stroke-318-340-mainp5007257.html
 
Sounds like you have the answers to your questions, and know what you want to do. Hope the best!!!!!!
 
Well, I don’t think I really gave any answers to my own questions, just clarified some points that got foggy through the thread. I still love all the input and learn plenty too, so keep em coming.

I ran YET ANOTHER scenario through camquest that was impressive (see attached pic, which includes my actual head flow CFM #’s), which simply adds to my 318 new piston option #1, with a new hydraulic roller cam & retrofit kit (comp cam XR-268HR-10) & SP manifold. The numbers went to 411 hp & 419 torque. When I replaced SP with DP, the #’s dropped to 394 / 415. I showed this to Mike at MRL, and he said the DP #’s are more realistic, and that was a good cam choice. It is a relatively calm cam actually, mild-to-medium idle, great vacuum of course. So correct me if I am wrong, but my thinking was that the roller cam frees up the lower rpm torque & throttle response, and the SP manifold helps in the upper band. Does that sound about right? Better fuel economy is not a bad thing either through less friction. Anyways, more to ponder. Thoughts??
http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/s...otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/
 
1. Do the roller cam
2. STAY away from magnum, anything with the word magnum other than the car body STAY away from it, yeah for a pos dd it's fine, but eventually you'll want performance, and you won't get it...
3. take your 360 heads and have your machine shop mill them 30 even 40, have them correct the intake side of the head also, tell them not to be lazy asshats. Do some porting and clean up the bowls, as much as you can afford
4. the roller will make more power in every area that a flat can't simply from the ramp speeds to get the valve open, and closed. The roller will also not have the wear issue and ALLOW you to have a perfect opportunity to break your motor in CORRECTLY.
5. the right way to break a motor in IS NOT sitting and killing the 1st few minutes with it held at 2000 rpm because otherwise the cam will wipe out and that ensures the rings aren't going to seat perfectly.
You want to vary your rpm and somewhat fairly hard and under load, from idle to say 4500, then let it drag down to 1500 and shoot it back up to say 4000, let it drag down to idle, then back to 4500, then down again, and within a few minutes, yes minutes your rings are seated and correctly to gain the best seal. You want to do this right after it fires up and in gear up and down in 1st or 2nd, preferably 1st.
6. no matter what you do use a very good piston, do not cheap out on the piston, preferably use the best forged piston you can then when you're bored with your possible 450hp you can possibly make if you do it right, you can come back and ask me about killer n20 set ups to hammer people making nearly dbl that.
 
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Wow, thanks Supershafts, great tips on break in.

As for my piston choice, I was targeting the KB167 hyper. Is that really a compromise?
And if I go premium piston, what I am doing with rod? I was planning on keeping cast rod & crank.

I imagine a short stroke 318 with lighter pistons and roller lash will rev quick.
 
As far as compromise with hypereutectic pistons...depends on who you talk to. KB also makes forgings that are a close mimic to the 167s, only forged, and they use a lighter ring package (less drag)

https://www.uempistons.com/index.ph...id=263&zenid=e81c74fba3c87d21ff5ab5fb27a3f2a6

But since KB likes to put the rings up close to the crown, they absorb more heat so you have to open up the gaps when compared to most other forgings...and if you're using a power adder like nitrous (not NOS...NOS is a brand, not the gas), for example, the extra heat will require you open up the ring gaps even more--read up on KB's website, they go into more detail there. That being said, KB swears up and down they've run copius amounts of nitrous in test engines, and have received testimonials from users with such combinations that routinely live through the abuse.

The end game is your intended/expected/anticipated usage of the engine. If you're never going to slap a bottle on it, or put a turbo/supercharger in front of it, the 167s biggest drawback would probably be the ring package. Otherwise, they're fairly light, have generous valve reliefs for large cams, and are well made for a reasonable price. As to your question about forged pistons with cast cranks and standard style rods, there's nothing really "wrong" about using them with good forged pistons, as long as your parts are up to task, you shouldn't have any issues unless you're pushing this thing past 6500 on a routine basis or making over about 500hp...if that's the intended usage, you really need to look into a totally forged bottom end.

I gotta agree with supershafts about the pistons though...even though my project that's on hold will likely never see a power adder of any kind, I'm still looking toward using Diamond forgings because I know they're light, use a low friction ring package, have well-sized reliefs, and are probably some of the best pistons on the market, and the price difference is acceptable to me considering the very few options for a 383.
 
cudaracer said:
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Wow, thanks Supershafts, great tips on break in.

As for my piston choice, I was targeting the KB167 hyper. Is that really a compromise?
And if I go premium piston, what I am doing with rod? I was planning on keeping cast rod & crank.

I imagine a short stroke 318 with lighter pistons and roller lash will rev quick.
Click to expand...

The rod isn't cast, it is forged, all mopar rods till recently are forged. The crank is cast unless you have a forged 18 crank, they do exist.
Besides you can spin a 18 to heaven
May want to invest in a cheap scat forged crank*

Here's the thing though, you R E A L L L L Y are looking for performance? right, i mean at the end of the day if you could get to 600hp, you're not gonna say nah lets leave it at 397hp ???

So here's the thing, if I myself built a motor today and it made 1000hp... by next month or the month after you like me will want just a bit more.

So because of that little problem of always wanting more it's why every motor i build it gets a custom piston, so what about the $800/900 for the pistons and at an additional week to get.
Sure you're hyper pistons were $300.....

So now we are at a motor build with a $500/600 difference in pistons.

The pluses just add up though, less spinning weight, less fatigue on the rod, more power is able to be made.....

Now for all purposes lets say the guy with the hyper piston has better heads and cam and intake.

He spanks you 1st round, cause his $500/600 dollar cheaper piston motor has better parts, he didn't skimp on the heads and valves and cam and rockers and intake and all that other stuff...

The option you have - Next round you activate the 1st stg @200

(*Option yet again)Third round you activate the 2nd stg @300 on top of the 200....(*investment in the cheap forged scat crank)
(can't do that with a gm/ford unless you want it disassembled without tools)

Who do you think is smiling more and happier about the $500/600 difference.


Of course there are some added ign upgrades and the dedicated fuel system for this, but you now have options, where a hyper piston would come out the drain plug trying something like that.

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Here, suddenly you're paired up with a T-rex..... you have 2 options 1st stg or 2nd stg, or both.... ah 1st stg should be enough

[ame]http://youtu.be/wPX7B-Fe69I[/ame]

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cudaracer said:
So the smaller the displacement, the more beneficial roller cams are.
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Roller cams are beneficial in EVERY motor size.

What makes a roller able to make more power is the ability it has to RACE the valve off the seat incredibly faster since the ramp is using a roller and not a flat piece of metal kinda scuffing along the surface.

So the quicker and faster you can get the valve to open and start opening and the same for closing , the faster you can start the filing and compression and exhausting....

Also a roller allows you the option to break the rings in FAR FAR better than the option you DO NOT have with a flat cam, unless you want to gamble and make a cam change


ROLLER is Always better.

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cudaracer, have you actually figured out what you want out of the car?

I think I've read two or three of your threads, and I can't recall ever reading anything definitive on your desired outcome...

The members on this forum can talk at you all day long about things to do to make a successful car, but if you don't define what you wanna do, there will be no filter, and you'll get like what you have above--people who give you their recipe for a successful drag car. I have no problem with that, because all the talk of screaming engines is intoxicating, but the reality is, if you don't tell people on here what your end game is, the raw unfiltered and unvectored discussion will make your head spin.
 
Tex'stang, I thought I was clear, that I wanted a budget build, keeping my 318 block. I was weighing options is all. As for use, it is obviously nothing more than a street cruiser with a bit more go, especially with my 3.23 gears and 904 auto.

More specifically, I want to burn rubber into 2nd, launch hard, rev quick, but probably never over about 5500, and sound great doing it.

So I am leaning hard toward the roller cam and no stroker.

Oh and by the way, there seems to be far more people posting here than FEBO, which explains my posts here too.
 
Here it is...found it...

Thinking about it more, I doubt I need much durability, no more than the average cruiser who might make it to the drag strip once every 5 years. And how do you rev a 3 speed automatic very high in the first place? I don't think it has ever been north of 5K, ever.
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OK, add that to what you just said above...something that sounds good, won't likely go over 5500, mostly a cruiser, launches hard, etc...

And you wanna go roller...get ready to pony up. Last time I looked, the HR retrofit cams are about $279-$325, and quality drop in rollers are more. But for the bottom end, the KBs will be fine for your purposes, and save you some ching. If you don't need to go above 5500, the Weiand action plus would probably work well for you with your heads. Try to set up for about 9:1 so you can run most pump gas.

You'll probably need about 2500-2800 worth of stall to help getting that E body moving with those gears...don't cheap out on the stall either.
 
txstang84 said:
and you'll get like what you have above--people who give you their recipe for a successful drag car..
Click to expand...


That Jeep is successful on a drag strip, local streets $$$ and ovals....

That isn't no only does 1 thing good vehicle.

That is a street vehicle, it can drag, road and oval and still cruises down the LIE or anywhere at 85mph and still maintains 14 mpg, does DD duty and still has power windows, locks, seats, brakes, steering, a/c, ft 4x4, short tire, 3.73, no stall tc,.
 

txstang84, he wants more torque and horsepower (kind-a-like a 360). But he already has the heads and intake (which I guess don't fit a 360), so he'll buy pistons and roller cam (will be more than a 360) to not have quite what that E-body really needs with highway gears and a tighter stall, the torque of a 360. But the real love of this is each builder can do exactly what he/she wants as we all do with our projects.. and I do believe in 318's, so with his additions he'll probably be happy in the end and that is all that really matters cause he is driving it. For sure what he is doing will add torque and performance. It may not be getting the most for your money, but he will be gettn something for his money.
 
cudaracer said:
^

Oh boy.
Well, on that note, I guess I am done with this thread.
Thanks all.
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Nothing offensive here, just 100 percent saying what you have replied. You stated throughout the thread that you want more torque by roller cam and stroker crank but was on a budget. We just offered the cheapest way for you to get there. You stated the 360 was "out of the conversation" because you already have the heads and top end. So I just stated they must not work on a 360. You have eliminated the stroker, but are going to use a roller cam and pistons in a rebuild. I just stated that you will get more horsepower and torque, but just said you will spend more and not get as much (which is true). Nothing was offensive to chase you away from your thread. With no sarcasm, I DO hope the best for you!! And remember, not all advice given here is for you only, but for the 20 other people trying to do the same type of project that finds this and reads it for advice. Good luck!!
 
P.S. the 349 dollar crank needs to be balanced too, and that is additional cost for anyone considering it.
 
I think the 318, with KB Hypers, and a flat tappet hydraulic would exceed your expectations and do it for less.
Super made sopme good points but a couple comments.. On the roller cam - With regard to Mopars - flat tappets can lift the valve as fast and in some cases faster depending on the diameter of the roller. Rollers only give lifespan and smoothness - not speed especially the initial off the seat motion (where the roller diameter creates an issue). Also - if you use a modern shop with the right equipment to finish hone a bore for the rings use, the rings are 80% seated as soon as the cylinders have 3-4 firing strokes on them. The rest comes with loading the engine as the rings seat onto the piston's ring land. The process of breaking in a camshaft, assuiming the engine starts immediately and the carb or EFi is close to right, does not harm or delay anything witht he rings. I dont get the feeling the OP's looking for anything having large doses of NO2 or racing at the track regularly.
 
If you ever done cam timing then you can see and measure in which the roller moves the valve, how quickly and how much per degree of rotation. After you do that you'll see there is more than lifespan and smoothness.

When you break in a cam holding it at a specific rpm the rings aren't seating and moving around the bore as they would when being run up and down the cylinder in wide varying rpm changes both up and down quickly with load, and yes that will make a difference how well the motor will be in efficiency.

Having an option vs not having further options and having to do the entire build over again for further increases down the road when everything can all be done as bolted on additions can be very helpful.
I have had many many people not want or even think about racing that are now doing it more than me.
Can't have a feeling reading, can't know what may happen, but having the chance to do it vs not having any idea of why and how is wasteful
 
Biggest advantage of the roller cam is todays oils. We've been breaking in flat tappet cams for years and years and for me personally, I've never had a problem. You can go fast with either cam. Either cam will more than surpass what I think the OP desires in performance. For what the gain is, the money for a roller/roller lifters isn't a great pay out. Not for a mild street engine. And, as SUPER mentioned, if down the road he decides to push for drag racers low E.T, I bet that 318 won't be the motor he uses anyways. The OP doesn't care about this, but I would drop a '89-91 roller 360 in there (factory 308 heads), and I would get one that ran excellent for about 350 bucks. Bolt on the intake, change to a car oil pan and he would think he put a stroker crank, pistons and roller in that 318. I had one of these 360's in a D150 truck (short bed) and it ran low 15's bone stock. Yes, manifolds w/single exhaust, throttle body injection, 3.21 gears. Weighed 3750. Just speculating, but could you imagine in a car with dual exhaust (headers), 650 4bbl, with less weight and less wind resistance, high 13's may be possible. Just think of the smooth running, torque for the street, cheap performance that would be. And future upgrades? Plenty for that too..
 
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