Many resales of the Holley (Sniper) & other aftermarket Fuel Injection Systems

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I have read a bunch of the posts in one of the FiTech bookface pages. I would bet over 50% of the resales are poor installs. whether its poor wiring, dirty fuel systems or just plain old crappy workmanship. I had one on my slant for a summer with Zero issues, only pulled it off because I wanted to go multiport ( should have just done it the first time ). still have my 600PA set up and will use it on another car down the road im sure.
 
I've done a few Snipers and FItechs.
 
any strong opinions on one over the other? i mean besides the usual just "just go MPI"
You'll never see me recommend EFI. Just too many things to eff up. The one I did that I actually liked was on a bone stock old Ford F100 with a 292 Ford Y block. I put the FITech on it and it is one sweet runnin truck. It was the only FITech I did, the rest were Snipers. They didn't run very well......BUT in each case, the customer refused the final tune. They have to be final tuned on a chassis dyno and if you don't do that, all you get is their selection of "defaults" which is good only for the most mild of builds.....which these were not. In each case, I could have had them running perfectly with a carburetor.
 
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Good advise above from RRR as usual. Never done one myself yet, but I have friends with the Snipers. All have done the final tune, and he's correct - world of difference. Like most things in life, ya can't do it half-a$$ed.
 
Does anyone have experience installing these systems?

Speculation as to why so many resales? (Do they suck or can it be attributed to owner operator failure?)
I looked heavily into it. I found 90 percent of the issues with either FiTech Holley and even Edlebrocks FI conversion kits boiled down to the person installing and operating it. Adding sensors and electronics to vehicles and engines never designed for them by people often who can barely turn a wrench results in lots of issues.

The other 10 percent comes from a combination of mismatched parts, not buying the full system and even the local fuel blends. For example, both the Holley and Fitech seem to struggle with the Mopar factory style ignition systems but converting to HEI or going with the added spark controllers for the kits seem to solve those issues.

Another issue is with dual plane intakes. Lots of people have reported uneven fueling and even puddling after going to one of these kits. That can be somewhat tuned for but requires more than just plug and play.

All in all, if you’re going to go EFI, your best bet is to purchase a complete system and where possible, a fuel rail/direct port injection.
 
Does anyone have experience installing these systems?

Speculation as to why so many resales? (Do they suck or can it be attributed to owner operator failure?)
Nothing makes torque like a carburetor does. That and the slight lag/delay of computers fine tuning a/f..
 
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I have been using a FiTech system since they came out about 8 years ago. From what I have noticed, a LOT of people can't follow instructions when installing them. They blame the system and then post pics for help and everything is a rats nest of wires. The other issue I see a lot is people have a poor running engine and install EFI hoping it'll fix all of their issues and it doesn't. It still runs the same as before and they blame the system. In terms of FiTech, it is not just a bolt on and go unit, you need to set of basic parameters and set your timing correctly. It'll self learn to a degree, but if there is a big performance issue, you'll need to manually adjust a few settings to get it close and then the self learn will dial it in. The data logging feature is great, it'll show you how much adjustment it needs to make, if they are all maxed out, you need to change stuff manually. Mine has full adjust for low rpm fueling, I'm still working my way through it, when I adjust the fuel for low rpm, I get a bog when throttle position is rapidly increased. I don't blame the unit, I blame me for not knowing exactly what I am doing.
 
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I admit, EFI may not pay off financially

But I intend to get it back on my Dart if I live long enough to get it back together.

You DO have to do reading and pay attention. There ARE features that you have to pay attention to and set up correctly.

Probably the biggest thing is paying attention to wiring dress so you don't get EMI/ RFI back in the system

You are dealing with sensors with VERY small signal levels against high current (big output alternator) and high power ignition systems.

For me, Holley has the best support. Edelbrock seems to be a close second. I have not checked lately, but FItech "support" was more of a forum than official.
 
I love EFI. I've used the Terminator X and Dominator X systems. About to put a Terminator X on the BGE I'm building. It's a generation thing. I grew up with a laptop in my face, so it was an easy transition. But in saying that, the engine is only going to do what you tell it to do with EFI. No more, no less. It can be unforgiving.

The Sniper has a decent self-learn feature that will get you 90% of the way there. It's fine for most guys. But if you're racing or adding forced induction it gets much more complicated. If you truly understand motors and what they want/need to run optimally, you can learn how to tune. The concepts are very similar - just the vernacular is different.

Proper grounding and understanding which sensors/wires need cranking vs constant 12v is critical. If you have improper grounds and/or a bunch of electrical interference it will cause havoc with your tuning. Devin Vanderhoof has a great series on YouTube about it.

Overall, I'd say if you want to challenge yourself and learn new skills - give tuning an EFI a chance. But if you're building a cruiser, just stick with a carb or get the Sniper and use the self-learn. Just depends on what your goals are.
 
You touched on a good point there, proper grounding. I added a ground from the throttle body right to the firewall instead of grounding through bolts to the intake and engine block.

You also need to make sure you have no exhaust leaks. My collector flanges are banged up pretty good, and took me a while to get everything sealed up perfect so my O2 sensor could do its job properly.
 
I've been running a Fitech 2x4 1200PA system on my 340 blower engine for 4 years now. I love it. I shielded the wires to make sure there was no crosstalk and haven't looked back. Starts easily even when it's minus 20 outside. It also runs really good at WOT. Most of the problems I have heard of with FiTech systems can be attributed to either poor installation or the fuel command center being a piece of junk.

Jack
 
I've been running a Fitech 2x4 1200PA system on my 340 blower engine for 4 years now. I love it. I shielded the wires to make sure there was no crosstalk and haven't looked back. Starts easily even when it's minus 20 outside. It also runs really good at WOT. Most of the problems I have heard of with FiTech systems can be attributed to either poor installation or the fuel command center being a piece of junk.

Jack
Yep the control unit sometimes glitches.
One thing I feel is worth mentioning is to lock out the distributor, adjust the distributor for the @idle timing you want/need...select that # in the hand held.. then set the desired total/full advance. People forget that. The other thing.. is .. how many are running them ontop of dual planes vs single. How many factory engineer designed 180 dual plane fi engine were produced.. 0 to my knowledge. How many are utilizing notching the secondary or entire plenum divider ? They have vac operated dual stage intakes in passenger cars to make both low and top end power optimal from the intake manifold standpoint.. but not dedicated 180 dual. Am I mistaken?
 
I run mine on top of an M1 single plane. I already had thr intake on my engine, but from what I have read, single planes are better for these style EFI kits because they offer more even fuel distribution to all 8 cylinders. I'm using the FiTech to control my timing like you mentioned too. My distributor is locked out at 18 degrees, with an adjustable rotor, so I could dial it back and have the rotor pointed right at the tower on the distributor cap. I also upgraded my distributor to an MSD Pro Billet when I installed it. At the time, most vendors were saying that it wouldn't work with a 50 year old stock one, I'm not sure why, but like I said, it works perfectly.

I also run a Corvette style filter/regulator close to the tank, it's set at 58psi and has a built in return.
 
That's how mine was before too, locked at 32 with a 6A box. I figured I would give FiTech ability a try, and with my cars usage, I can't tell a difference.
 
Does anyone have experience installing these systems?

Speculation as to why so many resales? (Do they suck or can it be attributed to owner operator failure?)
1) Yes. The Sniper in my Coronet works great and has for three years. My car runs better than it ever did with the Edelbrock 750 carb that was on it when I bought it. Gets slightly better mileage too but that was not intended. Before the EFI, the carb and ignition were both tuned, meaning I put the effort in to it and had it running about as well as it could have. Does it make more power with EFI? Probably not but it's a mostly stock engine so max power was not a concern, just better overall drivability. Granted, some of the 'better performance' has to do with using their digital ignition system and letting the ECU control timing but overall, it runs noticeably smoother and cleaner. No gas smell or anything after sitting for a few days, no changes in performance with different weather, no need to pump the pedal and it starts right up, blah blah.

2) 99% of resales are installer error. If you look at parts on the Holley refurbished sales page, that's literally the first thing they tell you in the part description. Carbs or EFI, doesn't matter, they all get returned for the same reasons.

"This is an official Holley Performance Factory Refurbished Carburetor. Factory Refurbished carbs are NOT old worn-out carbs that have been rebuilt. They are carbs that were returned under warranty. When these carbs are returned, we check them out and most of the time there is nothing wrong with them. Generally, they were simply adjusted out of working range by the installer."

I remember reading that and being completely astonished by that statement. Their marketing department uses polite language to get that across but it's pretty clear that what they're saying is most of their customers don't know what they're doing and will blame the part for a failure rather than their own laziness or lack of understanding. If they're saying this about basic, 600 cfm 4160 carbs that have been around for 200 years it stands to reason that they'd get more EFI returns since the setup is a little more involved than bolting a carb on an intake.

It's true that their marketing tends to be a little rosy so understand installation is definitely not as simple as bolting a carb to an intake but lets face it, it's not rocket science either. The concepts are all the same, they're just packaged differently. That said, if you're one of those guys that don't need instructions, has an aversion to wiring or think you can tune your car better than an electronic device connected to a laptop and software, don't bother with it.

YMMV
 
I'll go along 100% that most resales are operator error. That said, these people who make all this stuff need to make it less complicated so people with average intelligence and understanding can have a better chance at success. Some of the wiring and instructions are devilishly complicated and that point cannot be argued.
 
I would surmise that most folks sell these becuase they will not dedicate the time and hours to tune it Properly. Or Lay out the Ca$h to get it tuned on a dyno.

I have had Multiport on my '79 Volare Slant 6 since 2008. For years, every drive to and from work was a tuning session... Same with super cold winter mornings
Once you get it tuned they are nice.

Also a good working knowledge of computers and closed / open loop systems and engineer brain is helpful.

Also you can mistype a number or put a decimal in the wrong place and it can shut the entire system down too. Learning how to save and revert if needed if helpful.
 
I'll go along 100% that most resales are operator error. That said, these people who make all this stuff need to make it less complicated so people with average intelligence and understanding can have a better chance at success. Some of the wiring and instructions are devilishly complicated and that point cannot be argued.
Trust me, it's really not that complicated. If you've ever wired an MSD into a Chrysler product you're halfway there. Yes, you have to figure out stuff like how to get ignition-switched power to the components but if you can understand that concept then it's just another job.

Here's an example of how this scenario plays out. In the instructions they beat you over the head with the idea that the main ECU power and ground wires must go directly to the battery. They don't say it directly but it's because the ECU is susceptible to RFI which can wreak havoc on it. For 99% of the people out there doing this, the battery is basically the only place in the entire car that provides 'clean' power. It's a flaw in the product for sure but if you understand an accept it as fact and are willing to work around it, it's not a problem.

They real reason they beat you over the head with running the wires to the battery thing is because guys A) think they know better than a computer and B) are lazy because they will find ANYWHERE BUT the battery to put the main ECU power. They'll wrap bare copper wire strands around the coil + lug or shove the wire into the voltage regulator connector which invariably will cause problems. They call the tech line when the ECU keeps resetting itself or something and that's the first question the Holley guy will ask - did you run your main power to the battery? No? Sorry, can't help you. Guy hangs up frustrated, says to himself or anyone in earshot WTF does it matter where you get B+ from?? This thing sucks! He rips it off and goes back to the trusty 3310 that never left him stranded and doesn't need any wires. Sadly, I've witnessed this kind of thing firsthand with my one of my neighbors.

Takes patience but you also need an open mind.
 
I would surmise that most folks sell these becuase they will not dedicate the time and hours to tune it Properly. Or Lay out the Ca$h to get it tuned on a dyno.

I have had Multiport on my '79 Volare Slant 6 since 2008. For years, every drive to and from work was a tuning session... Same with super cold winter mornings
Once you get it tuned they are nice.

Also a good working knowledge of computers and closed / open loop systems and engineer brain is helpful.

Also you can mistype a number or put a decimal in the wrong place and it can shut the entire system down too. Learning how to save and revert if needed if helpful.
Part of it is the marketing. People read "plug and play" or "best thing since sliced bread" and think they will get super awesome performance with zero effort. Could not be further from the truth, have to read between the lines. Can't tune the thing on a dyno if someone can't even get it running.

I'll agree to an extent about needing a working knowledge of computers. If you can't perform basic file functions like "save as" or understand how to retrieve files you probably have no business using EFI. You're not dealing with code or programming though so you'd have to be pretty out of it to not be able to deal with basic file navigation.

The Holley software is fairly easy to use, you're mostly just filling in fields. At some point you will want to build custom fuel and spark tables but there are plenty of YT videos on how to do that. Understanding open and closed loop is good to have a grasp on but not necessary to get the car running decently since the Sniper is self-learning. Interpreting the data is sort of the black art piece though. Took me a while to understand what I was seeing and how to utilize it.

I'm also going to have to respectfully disagree regarding your last statement. I've fat-fingered a few things and never wiped anything out or had the thing shut down because of incorrect data. Would be pretty hard to do that in the Holley software. Have to be careful when updating the ECU firmware but that's the only instance I can think of where there's a chance of crashing the thing.
 
I've had the Fi Tech on my Duster for about 2 years now. I had never dealt with EFI before but was confident I could handle it. It was a huge learning curve but I figured it out. The efi is adjusting the MSD distributor and I love it. My timing was locked out but the engine feels much stronger from the low end now.
 
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