what kind of value could you put on a matching numbers vehicle vs. a non-matching? Is there a rule of thumb that you guys go by? Thanks for help.
matching numbers?
- Thread starter deviledchin
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Thrashard340
Well-Known Member
Scarcity vs demand is what drives up price. Nowadays, it is difficult finding a car with the matching #'s engine or transmission. It's even more difficult finding a car with both. Matching #'s should command an asking price higher than that of the same car without matching #'s. There isn't a fixed percentage. It varies from model-to-model. you just have to research the market of the car you are trying to sell.
blackbomber
Raging Member
The above is true, but it depends on the car. The added value that my 318 Duster has from it's numbers matching original drivetrain over a similarly running, same displacement non matching is $0.00.
gerahead
Glutton for Punishment
"Numbers Matching" is a phrase that has become so generic, you need to make sure that it means what you think. If you really mean numbers matching, this only applies to cars built in the 68 model year or newer. That is when the manufacturers started stamping at least a partial VIN in big ticket items like engines, trannies and rear ends. The value of these cars, like previously stated is driven by the rarity of the original equipment and the ability to verify the correctness of the information. For example, a numbers matching big-block Dart GTS would be a whole lot more valuable than a numbers matching 318 version of the same model. Prior to 68, numbers matching really has little meaning. Since there is not the VIN relationship, this generally means that the major components are within the reasonably expected date codes for the car's assembly date. For many of the more collected/scrutinized models (Mustangs and Vettes for example), there are guidelines for the time frame differences between the component date codes and the assembly date.
So in short, the more common the model combination, the less impact there is on value for matching numbers. Hope this helps. L8r
So in short, the more common the model combination, the less impact there is on value for matching numbers. Hope this helps. L8r
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
another numbers debate. my take is this. to collectors , highly optioned numbers matching engine/trans performance cars are a huge deal and bring big money. the $10,000 dollar 1975 dart 4 door numbers matching 6 cylinder is a joke regardless of mileage. personally, i think it is all over-rated unless we are talking about a hemi/six pack car or a LO23, BO29, WO23 ,RO23 original engine cars. people screaming numbers matching this and that to sell a POS rusted out 6 cylinder car need to be slapped. original small and big block darts and barracudas are great with the original engines and will always bring more money than without. original motor 340 cars are a great thing but im not seeing as much emphasis on these as i am the B and E bodies. there are nice folks wanting 25,000 bucks for restored 6 cylinder cars dressed up with 340 stuff that i find ridiculas. but to each his own. i will take a great body and a unmolested 6 cylinder car over a junked out 340 car that i can build the way i want to without worrying if i am hurting any value. the numbers/value game is for those who are mostly in it for profit and not what these cars represent. i have owned my share of numbers B Bodies and actually ,it took a lot of the fun out of it for me because of the criticizing and the purist who are always picking your **** apart. this is my opinion on it.
blackbomber
Raging Member
Agreed. Besides the lower overall value, and higher production numbers, these cars were used differently (usually).
That shot of my car in the sig is deceptive. All the horizontal surfaces have the paint burnt to a crisp, and a lot is surface rusted. BUT, it is original paint, albeit not for long. The car Adam has been buying supplies for is this one, and it's going to his shop this week.
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
Numbers matching only has a real effect on performance models.
The difference in value to the buyer can be huge or nothing at all. Some people won't buy a performance model without at least the original engine.
The difference in value to the buyer can be huge or nothing at all. Some people won't buy a performance model without at least the original engine.
blackbomber
Raging Member
I just realized we are all jumping in to answer a question posted by a brand new member with no intro....
ir3333
Well-Known Member
..if you compare a numbers matching 340 Dart to a 340 Dart clone, the one that is the highest quality will probably bring more money.
..a higher end car would be different.
..a higher end car would be different.
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
Nice theory but you have many that wouldn't buy a clone at all.
zhandfull
Well-Known Member
Good information here already. I would consider the numbers matching to be worth more only if the car was a high performance or special limited model. As far as how much more to me it depends on the whole car. If the car is cut up and raced out I don't put much value in the matching numbers part. However if it has all the key factory parts like wheels, intake, carb exhaust manifolds, air cleaners to me that is exciting and yes I see extra value if it's not a rust bucket.
Sorry about the intro, I was looking to buy a 340 Demon with very low miles, and an original owner claiming matching numbers. I was just tring to get a feel on how the matching numbers affects the pricing.
X2 on everything discussed above.
For example:
My 1969 Dodge Polara 500 convertible has a running matching numbers drivetrain that consists of the HP 383, Heavy Duty 727 Torqueflite, and the 489 case large pinion third member. Only 500 of the convertibles made. It has 120K miles but needs new interior, paint, and a top. Cost to purchase: $2000 in 2006.
1969 Dodge Polara hard top. Couple of thousand made. Non-running (water pump) numbers matching 318, 904 Torqueflite, and a 721 small pinion third member. Cost to purchase: $600 in 2010 as sheet metal donor car.
1971 Duster 340 with a running 318 and 904 trans (no VIN stampings). Non-original seats. No carpet. Everything else is original including exhaust and rear end. Needs full interior, paint, and lower quarters replaced (rusted out panels). Cost to purchase: $2,800 in 2009.
For example:
My 1969 Dodge Polara 500 convertible has a running matching numbers drivetrain that consists of the HP 383, Heavy Duty 727 Torqueflite, and the 489 case large pinion third member. Only 500 of the convertibles made. It has 120K miles but needs new interior, paint, and a top. Cost to purchase: $2000 in 2006.
1969 Dodge Polara hard top. Couple of thousand made. Non-running (water pump) numbers matching 318, 904 Torqueflite, and a 721 small pinion third member. Cost to purchase: $600 in 2010 as sheet metal donor car.
1971 Duster 340 with a running 318 and 904 trans (no VIN stampings). Non-original seats. No carpet. Everything else is original including exhaust and rear end. Needs full interior, paint, and lower quarters replaced (rusted out panels). Cost to purchase: $2,800 in 2009.
Thrashard340
Well-Known Member
Definitely. Percieved value of the make and model factors into it as well.
As for the comment regarding 340 cars? Collectors are up to speed on the 340's place in Mopar history. 20 years ago, nobody wanted a 340 car. Nobody even wanted a 340 E-body. Hemi's and 440 cars were desiable back then. 383 E-bodies were commanding more than 340 cars. Collectors nowadays are much more educated. The 340 was a performance option over the 383 in an E-body and viewed as more desirable. If you look at market pricing for 340 cars, they can match or eclipse a comparable 383 car.
Same with A-bodies. 20 years ago, nobody even looked at a 340 A-body. Back then, almost all of them were numbers matching cars. I had friends that had the following: '69 Dart GTS 340 & '73 Dart Sport 340. They bought them cheap and sold them cheap. Nowadays, its not as easy to get your hands on a rust free, original, running, numbers matching '69 Dart GTS 340...and definitely not cheap. The more I look online, 70 & 71 340 A-bodies are into the 20K-30K range restored. The market is catching up to the A-body. 20 years ago, nobody wanted a '73 Cuda or Challenger. Have anyone tried pricing one lately? The same will happen to '73 and '74 A-bodies. It's only a mater of time. The older these cars get and as the more exotic big block cars get scooped up, collectors will find another market segment to target.
dusterdan
Sublime Member
A true 340 demon is a valuable car that will keep climbing in value, just be sure to check the appropriate things to MAKE SURE it is indeed number matching (some of the more knowledgeable guys here will gladly help you out)! 340's came with a boatload of HD equipment from the factory such as 8 3/4's, 22" 3-row radiator, 727's, rallye dashes, bigger brakes and all sort of little goodies that's a sweet car to have and one you wouldn't have to be too scared of driving due to value! Go check it out!
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
a pic of the fender tag would help, and pics all around would be nice too....
Frankie
Member #9641
Personally I never paid much attention to "Numbers Matching". In fact, I usually steer clear of NM vehicles simply because those owning them put unrealistic prices on them.
I don't buy classics to flip, or to worship. I buy them to drive and have fun with, and to build to MY expectation. Not someone else's idea of what it should be.
While the numbers matching game is fine by me for who ever cares about that kind of thing, I also feel that it's one of the mentalities that is causing the collector car market to sky rocket in price.
Further, we've all seen non-numbers matching cars sell for far less than those that are matching cars, and in many cases the non-matching car is a better deal, and a better vehicle.
In short, I don't believe that Numbers matching should really matter to the hobbyist, unless their purpose for buying the car is to flip it, or build up some sort of fund for retirement.
Most of my guitars are worth more than my MoPars, and I'm fine with that. lol
Just my 2¢.
I don't buy classics to flip, or to worship. I buy them to drive and have fun with, and to build to MY expectation. Not someone else's idea of what it should be.
While the numbers matching game is fine by me for who ever cares about that kind of thing, I also feel that it's one of the mentalities that is causing the collector car market to sky rocket in price.
Further, we've all seen non-numbers matching cars sell for far less than those that are matching cars, and in many cases the non-matching car is a better deal, and a better vehicle.
In short, I don't believe that Numbers matching should really matter to the hobbyist, unless their purpose for buying the car is to flip it, or build up some sort of fund for retirement.
Most of my guitars are worth more than my MoPars, and I'm fine with that. lol
Just my 2¢.
Frankie
Member #9641
Lmao..
Ok, the deal is finally going thru, I will show some pictures asap. It has 25,800 miles, 4spd, the rallye dash has not been cut into but the pad is drying out, one small crack on the edge, very minimal surface rust in various spots (no replacement panels needed) Both front and rear seats need recovering due to drying out in cloth area. The owner lost his storage and it had to sit out for about a year or more.
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
A friend is a numbers matching guy. What a pain in the a.. he is to talk to. Everything is about value, and the discussions get old quick as all he ever talks about is 1 of this 1 of that. He was even going as far as trying to get 15k for a Cutlass because it was a #'s matching Cutlass with a 350 2 barrel turbo 350 with a quickie respray. You ask me it a..hats like him that killing the hobby. It helps if you are going to play the numbers game to verify everything. He bought, what was to be a #s matching 442 with a stick shift. He was unsure of what the code was for a 4 speed and bought the car anyway. Should have seen his face when I pointed out when the car was on the trailer that you could see the shift indicator in the dash had been painted over. He also learned to drive a #'s car somewhat gingerly after grenading the motor in a Judge....
My main reason for wanting the car, is that no one had thier hands in it. I hear to many horror storys of the butchers out there. It was a bonus to see the original drivetrain!
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
virgin metal is a great thing, regardless if the drivetrain is missing. i personally dont care if it has a motor or trans. looking forward to some pics! the duster in my sig is still wearing its original paint.
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