Max HP debate

Will the factory block survive?

  • It'll live!

    Votes: 6 75.0%

  • It's gonna blow!

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • Total voters
    8
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gagembassett

gagembassett

FABO Gold Member
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Okay so I'm curious what the max HP/TQ everyone has pushed out of a factory block? Why do I ask? I want to push 600 out of a factory 360 block with W9 heads on it and I have had many people tell me both ways that it'll survive and that it won't, more so that it will survive. So debate, discuss your max HP etc and I'll put up a poll if it will survive. I plan to overkill prep that block and rotating assembly so that I has a very strong chance to survive in my opinion.
 
It will live if prepped properly.
But I have to ask, why only 600HP with the W9 investment.
 
fishmens67 said:
It will live if prepped properly.
But I have to ask, why only 600HP with the W9 investment.
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It's not the smartest build, I know. All around the build is not the most logical or feasible. Factory blocked based W9, 4 speed in s full sized longbed D150. 600 hp was the goal with W2s but a fellow FABO member hooked me up with the W9 heads and intake
 
Too many variables and not enough information.
What year block? Early 360 castings used 340 water jacket cores, which gave them thicker cylinder walls... there's a thread on here where a member weighed many different years bare blocks, and iirc they varied by almost 40 lbs. I'm looking for the thread...
Are you going to fill the block, partial fill, or nothing?
Are you stroking it or running stock stroke? What is your projected rpm that you want to run to get your 600+ hp?
I don't think you'll find anyone who says you're not pushing a stock block at over 600 horse, especially since you know at some point you're going to want MORE...! Can it be done? Yes. It's done regularly, with good prep. Will it live? Maybe. My grandpa smoked cigars into his 90s. That doesn't make it smart, but it worked for him. You're not in the 600hp powerband all the time, either. But rule #1 is to start with a solid foundation. An early block would be preferred- an X or R block is icing on the cake. Then you've stacked the odds in your favor wherever the future takes you, and not worrying if you "crossed the line" with the last upgrade.
I just find it odd that you're willing to drop the coin on W9s and all the attendant hardware, but want to possibly jeopardize your investment with a stock block. But, if the block checks out and you're confident enough in the prep work, go for it.

Edit: I see you scored the W9s by coincidence- good going! Should be a sweet motor.
 
Professor Fate said:
Too many variables and not enough information.
What year block? Early 360 castings used 340 water jacket cores, which gave them thicker cylinder walls... there's a thread on here where a member weighed many different years bare blocks, and iirc they varied by almost 40 lbs. I'm looking for the thread...
Are you going to fill the block, partial fill, or nothing?
Are you stroking it or running stock stroke? What is your projected rpm that you want to run to get your 600+ hp?
I don't think you'll find anyone who says you're not pushing a stock block at over 600 horse, especially since you know at some point you're going to want MORE...! Can it be done? Yes. It's done regularly, with good prep. Will it live? Maybe. My grandpa smoked cigars into his 90s. That doesn't make it smart, but it worked for him. You're not in the 600hp powerband all the time, either. But rule #1 is to start with a solid foundation. An early block would be preferred- an X or R block is icing on the cake. Then you've stacked the odds in your favor wherever the future takes you, and not worrying if you "crossed the line" with the last upgrade.
I just find it odd that you're willing to drop the coin on W9s and all the attendant hardware, but want to possibly jeopardize your investment with a stock block. But, if the block checks out and you're confident enough in the prep work, go for it.

Edit: I see you scored the W9s by coincidence- good going! Should be a sweet motor.
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How about if I say a super early 360 casting, like February 11th of 1970 casting date? No fill block. 4 bolt main caps for the extra surface area. 7,500 rpm with high compression (probably 13:1) stock stroke
 
341 blocks with Billet caps should be no problem @
600HP in a drag racing application.

R blocks are still better if you can find one.
 
Its kind of a “nature of the beast” type question. Inherent first weak point in a stock passenger block is the thin cast cylinder walls. No two blocks are the same, meaning one might survive longer than another one. Eventually high horse power will fatigue a stock block. So you are rolling the dice. Best to use a race block when approaching racing power levels.
 
I'd recommend a short fill of hard bloc for a race engine, even tho you already said no to that. Cooling would not be a problem for the short duration of run time at a dragstrip. A street engine is rarely run at full power and also would not have a cooling problem, assuming you have an efficient cooling system.

Now if you are going road racing or stock car racing, or top speed racing, then cooling would be a challenge due to the much longer duration under full power. In that case, you would want to go to an aftermarket block with full length water jackets.

Drag racing is actually quite easy on engines due to the short run time. This engine will probably be used in a 6.0 ET 1/8 mile car which means it only has to turn 750 revolutions at full power. In the 1/4 mile it would turn 1,125 revolutions under full power in a 9 sec pass. Whereas a circle track racer would be turning tens of thousands of revolutions under full power in a single race and a stock block would be much more likely to fail due to simple metal fatigue.

This hypothetical question is fun to consider and allows everyone to explore the various issues associated with engine longevity. But in reality this question can be simply answered with the old phrase "don't be penny smart and pound foolish."
 
gagembassett said:
Okay so I'm curious what the max HP/TQ everyone has pushed out of a factory block? Why do I ask? I want to push 600 out of a factory 360 block with W9 heads on it and I have had many people tell me both ways that it'll survive and that it won't, more so that it will survive. So debate, discuss your max HP etc and I'll put up a poll if it will survive. I plan to overkill prep that block and rotating assembly so that I has a very strong chance to survive in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Stock stroke huh? Well, I don't have a clue. Best of luck.
 
gagembassett said:
Okay so I'm curious what the max HP/TQ everyone has pushed out of a factory block? Why do I ask? I want to push 600 out of a factory 360 block with W9 heads on it and I have had many people tell me both ways that it'll survive and that it won't, more so that it will survive. So debate, discuss your max HP etc and I'll put up a poll if it will survive. I plan to overkill prep that block and rotating assembly so that I has a very strong chance to survive in my opinion.
Click to expand...
:realcrazy:
 
If you are going to be 360 and make 600 real HP you are going to need some RPM. 7k at least and 7500 would be better.

That said, your ring seal will suck. You’ll need to run 1970’s bearing clearances because the main bores will move around like crazy.

At that compression ratio with those thin decks getting the head gaskets sealed will be problematic at best.

At 7500 you’ll need a GOOD oil pan with a big pick up tube. Not an OE sized tube. You’ll need full groove mains so the rods are getting oil all the time. A HV is mandatory.

I would NOT use a 4 bolt cap on that block. If you have not drilled the outer holes then don’t. If you have you have made the weak block considerably weaker. Cap bearing area isn’t your problem. That thin, flexible block is. No cap/bolt arrangement will fix that.

Hard block can help, but it’s a bandaid at best. It will stabilize the bottom of the bores, but it won’t make the main webs any stronger.

And save your money and skip the girdle. It adds weight and shifts the loads to the wrong areas.

You are asking a mass produced engine block to double its engineered RPM (most of these engines never say the high side of 4k and if they did they weren’t making any power and they weren’t at 4k very long) and double the power. At least.

At a measured 13:1 and with those heads I’m not sure how hard it’s going to be to not make way more than 600 HP. Then you‘ll either live with more power or start detuning to get the power down. Neither is a good option be detuning is contrary to my nature.

You are trying to save money and time. But you won’t. It will cost far, FAR more to cobble that stock block together and try and keep it alive, and when it ***** itself either build another stock block that will soon **** itself (more money spent) or then you’ll spend the money to buy a block.

Spend once, cry once. What you are doing is setting yourself up to fail.
 
Rat Bastid said:
If you are going to be 360 and make 600 real HP you are going to need some RPM. 7k at least and 7500 would be better.

That said, your ring seal will suck. You’ll need to run 1970’s bearing clearances because the main bores will move around like crazy.

At that compression ratio with those thin decks getting the head gaskets sealed will be problematic at best.

At 7500 you’ll need a GOOD oil pan with a big pick up tube. Not an OE sized tube. You’ll need full groove mains so the rods are getting oil all the time. A HV is mandatory.

I would NOT use a 4 bolt cap on that block. If you have not drilled the outer holes then don’t. If you have you have made the weak block considerably weaker. Cap bearing area isn’t your problem. That thin, flexible block is. No cap/bolt arrangement will fix that.

Hard block can help, but it’s a bandaid at best. It will stabilize the bottom of the bores, but it won’t make the main webs any stronger.

And save your money and skip the girdle. It adds weight and shifts the loads to the wrong areas.

You are asking a mass produced engine block to double its engineered RPM (most of these engines never say the high side of 4k and if they did they weren’t making any power and they weren’t at 4k very long) and double the power. At least.

At a measured 13:1 and with those heads I’m not sure how hard it’s going to be to not make way more than 600 HP. Then you‘ll either live with more power or start detuning to get the power down. Neither is a good option be detuning is contrary to my nature.

You are trying to save money and time. But you won’t. It will cost far, FAR more to cobble that stock block together and try and keep it alive, and when it ***** itself either build another stock block that will soon **** itself (more money spent) or then you’ll spend the money to buy a block.

Spend once, cry once. What you are doing is setting yourself up to fail.
Click to expand...
Preach It !!!
 
Rat Bastid said:
If you are going to be 360 and make 600 real HP you are going to need some RPM. 7k at least and 7500 would be better.

That said, your ring seal will suck. You’ll need to run 1970’s bearing clearances because the main bores will move around like crazy.

At that compression ratio with those thin decks getting the head gaskets sealed will be problematic at best.

At 7500 you’ll need a GOOD oil pan with a big pick up tube. Not an OE sized tube. You’ll need full groove mains so the rods are getting oil all the time. A HV is mandatory.

I would NOT use a 4 bolt cap on that block. If you have not drilled the outer holes then don’t. If you have you have made the weak block considerably weaker. Cap bearing area isn’t your problem. That thin, flexible block is. No cap/bolt arrangement will fix that.

Hard block can help, but it’s a bandaid at best. It will stabilize the bottom of the bores, but it won’t make the main webs any stronger.

And save your money and skip the girdle. It adds weight and shifts the loads to the wrong areas.

You are asking a mass produced engine block to double its engineered RPM (most of these engines never say the high side of 4k and if they did they weren’t making any power and they weren’t at 4k very long) and double the power. At least.

At a measured 13:1 and with those heads I’m not sure how hard it’s going to be to not make way more than 600 HP. Then you‘ll either live with more power or start detuning to get the power down. Neither is a good option be detuning is contrary to my nature.

You are trying to save money and time. But you won’t. It will cost far, FAR more to cobble that stock block together and try and keep it alive, and when it ***** itself either build another stock block that will soon **** itself (more money spent) or then you’ll spend the money to buy a block.

Spend once, cry once. What you are doing is setting yourself up to fail.
Click to expand...
Inquiring minds want to know how good does it feel to have spent 12 minutes of your life wasted typing the truth and giving incredible advice to know that it just went in 1 ear and out the other ? LOL
 
'68cuda416 said:
Inquiring minds want to know how good does it feel to have spent 12 minutes of your life wasted typing the truth and giving incredible advice to know that it just went in 1 ear and out the other ? LOL
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I listened to his advice. I'm not opposed to finding an X block etc. That's why I made this thread. Discuss and give constructive criticism. I wanted to know if 600 hp would no biggie to the block or if it's sketchy enough that I need to upgrade. I've never been one to ignore criticism
 
gagembassett said:
I listened to his advice. I'm not opposed to finding an X block etc. That's why I made this thread. Discuss and give constructive criticism. I wanted to know if 600 hp would no biggie to the block or if it's sketchy enough that I need to upgrade. I've never been one to ignore criticism
Click to expand...
To MANY the whole build makes no sense but carry on......
 
'68cuda416 said:
To MANY the whole build makes no sense but carry on......
Click to expand...
Well yeah I did admit myself that the whole build isn't feasible but that's okay not every build has to gun for a 9 second quarter mile. I want it to be fast but unique. I'd be happy with high 10s. The build would've made a lot more sense and people would've been a lot more content if the title had W2 instead of W9 in it. I just got lucky with that setup and that's why I'm using it. Hell plenty of guys have full on blower big block setups in pure showcars that never have seen a strip but not one bats an eye to those because they're cool? Why is this any different I'm just actually going to beat on mine. A young guy trying to talk WITH the big boys that have built motors like these so the young guy can JOIN the big boys? What's the issue with not wanting to be an average joe edelbrock headed 408. I asked for constructive criticism and input, how is that ever a bad thing?
 
gagembassett said:
Well yeah I did admit myself that the whole build isn't feasible but that's okay not every build has to gun for a 9 second quarter mile. I want it to be fast but unique. I'd be happy with high 10s. The build would've made a lot more sense and people would've been a lot more content if the title had W2 instead of W9 in it. I just got lucky with that setup and that's why I'm using it. Hell plenty of guys have full on blower big block setups in pure showcars that never have seen a strip but not one bats an eye to those because they're cool? Why is this any different I'm just actually going to beat on mine. A young guy trying to talk WITH the big boys that have built motors like these so the young guy can JOIN the big boys? What's the issue with not wanting to be an average joe edelbrock headed 408. I asked for constructive criticism and input, how is that ever a bad thing?
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It's not a bad thing but Rat Bastid gave you incredible real world advice so that you won't end up throwing money down the toilet and in the end spending more and ending up with less if you would listen....BUT......it's your money and your right to ignore great advice and be cool with the lowest powered W9 engine in existence so yeah I think you will get noticed but not for the reasons you may have wanted.
 
'68cuda416 said:
It's not a bad thing but Rat Bastid gave you incredible real world advice so that you won't end up throwing money down the toilet and in the end spending more and ending up with less if you would listen....BUT......it's your money and your right to ignore great advice and be cool with the lowest powered W9 engine in existence so yeah I think you will get noticed but not for the reasons you may have wanted.
Click to expand...
And like I said. I'm not opposed to buying an X block. I just wanted to know if the factory block was stout enough. It sounds like most people are iffy on it so better block it is
 
gagembassett said:
And like I said. I'm not opposed to buying an X block. I just wanted to know if the factory block was stout enough. It sounds like most people are iffy on it so better block it is
Click to expand...
You will never regret buying a good block.....incase you didn't know the X is better than a stock OE block but an R and R1 is better than the X and a R3 is the best by far in that category of blocks.....another option is a Ritter block.
 
Herb McCandless told me it was cheaper to go faster. He was right.
What he meant was buy the best parts, because you know you're going to want to go faster.
IMO a block is not the place to cheap out.
The factory block could live at 600hp, but for how long.
 
Here we go again huh? This is a total myth. So many people have built 600+ hp with stone stock blocks. No block fill. No four bolt mains. I would not waste 4-5k for an aftermarket block on a stock stroke 600 hp engine. For reference I own 2 stock 340 blocks that have made hundreds of passes at over 900hp.
 
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