Max RPM Stock Magnum Rods

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72DMag

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With the appropriate cam and valve springs and aftermarket pistons etc... What is the max rpm for stock magnum rods. From what I read on here the weak point is the rod bolts not the rod itself.

I was going to shift at 5800 and set rev limiter to 6k rpm. Is that pushing it?
 
You say aftermarket Pistons that could mean a lot of different things. Piston weight and balance in my opinion play a significant role in the stress on your rods. The lighter the piston the lighter the stress at the same RPM range. Upgrade your bolts if possible and go for it .Mopar rod are strong units they won't let you down. I ran a post recently named rod breakers wanted to record just how many failures there were almost all were related to other failures not the rods themselves in some very high output engines.
 
Piston/pin/rod mass (reciprocating inertia) and the balance of the rotating assembly all play a part. Light weight, will turn some serious RPM and be very responsive. Use high quality rod bolts and have the rods trued for roundness on the crankshaft end. 65'
 
If you are talking super lightweight forged aluminum pistons, and ARP bolts, you really should not worry about it.
Just do some googling and other research to determine what you really want. Its your engine, if you don't feel comfortable using the stock rods, get better ones.
 
Theres only one way to find out for sure ........ remove the rev limiter, then wind it up and get back with us here at FABO, thank way we know what its capable of .... A friend wanted me to ask.
 
It's not the rods to worry about. The rod bolts will let go before the rods so make sure you have good ones.
Been there done that. Pulled the intake, distributor, and valve covers and threw the rest in the **** can
 
lol @max wedge. Okay I was asking to determine gear ratio for the car. Sounds like I am better off going lower rpm to be safe 5500 to 5600. Thanks!
 
The stock rods with ARP rod bolts in my 2000 360 magnum has seen 6500-7000 RPM lots and lots of times. Going on two years now. Pistons are KB107
 
The stock rods with ARP rod bolts in my 2000 360 magnum has seen 6500-7000 RPM lots and lots of times. Going on two years now. Pistons are KB107
Same as mine, except my LAengine was built in 1999.
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With street gears, you can only hit 7000 once on the way to 65 mph, in first gear, and street tires will be spinning; so that will be easy on the engine.. To hit 7000 in 1.45 second gear (automatic) your rear gears would need to be about 5.00.

To shift at 6000, your power peak will need to be about 5700, maybe 5600, and that points to a cam of about 250/255*@.050; which is not very streetable.
IMO, a better idea is a 225ish@.050 cam, which might peak at about 5000, and shift it at about 5300/5400, but set it up so you can wring it out to 6000, when you want to hear her sing.. That way you can still have some bottom-end torque, if you do it right.
IMO, to properly use a high-rpm cam on the street, she really needs an overdrive.

EDIT
But you gotta realize that if you go too steep on the starter gear, yur just trading gears. The break point with a 4-speed, is about .73.. For example, if you start with 3.23s and go to 3.23/.73=4.42s you just traded a fine cruiser gear for a ripper starter gear.
With an automatic the 1-2 split is .59 so that's a big PITA . Your 5.00 optimum second gear turns into something like 5.00/.59= 2.94 in first gear. Bit to run that without being embarrassed might take a 3200 or higher TC.
Furthermore;
If you calculate your on-road horsepower at say every 4 mph, from say 60ft out to 112mph with the optimum gear; and then repeat with any sub-optimum gear, then you will see that you are again just trading horsepower at one road-speed for horsepower at another.
So then, for low ET, it behooves you to have the engine running thru the power peak, between the trap-markers, at the end of the track.
But for a streeter, you don't care about that;
And with an automatic, and a big cam, you can't trap 60mph optimally anyway, so the best idea,
IMO,
is to start with a bigger engine, and just put a nice cruiser gear in it, and a low-rpm cam, and try not blow the tires away.
Let me explain
For a streeter;
Say you had a stout well-engineered 318 with a big cam that power-peaked at 5700, and it made good power over the nose and so you shifted it at 6000. And say you were stuck with a 3-speed automatic with gears of 2.45-1.45-1.00. And this beast hooked reasonably well.
For low-ET, in the zero to 60 contest, you wanna gear this beast to trap at 6000rpm at about 60mph. This will take an overall gear (with an 84"rollout) of 7.95 at zero-slip; say 6.90@15% slip.
Ok so in first gear, you need 6.90/2.45=2.82s, and in second gear you need 6.90/1.45=4.76s. See what I mean? yur not gonna run either of those gears. So your hi-rpm 318 automatic will NEVER trap 60mph optimally. So then say you run a gear half way in between, of say 3.73s. Now you will hit 60 at about 4700 in second gear .
Sooooooo why do you have a 6000 rpm engine in there?
With a powerpeak of 5700, your torque peak might be at near 4200, so by 4700 you are barely on the cam! Say that stout 318 made 350hp at 5700, but at 4700 only 295hp. How much slower would a 318 built to power-peak at 295hp@4700 be, in this zero to 60 contest?
IDK, but with a stop watch on street tires I doubt it will be significant.

Butum
in my thinking, a 360 making 295hp@4700 is easy-peasy; and it will have a mountain more low-end torque, being way more fun to drive, and making better fuel-mileage in the deal.
Butum, because of that torque, you won't need to run the 3.73s any more either! ,nor a 3200TC. Sooo, you can sacrifice a lil ET, for the sake of NVH, and long life by running 3.23s which will get you 60mph=4100 in second. So now, my idea is to run a 4100 rpm powerpeak in the cam,( or a just a bit more,lol) and put the power in the heads instead of in the rpm. 295hp @4100 might be a bit of a stretch, but I think doable, and so you end up with a combo that will go 100,000 miles and break into the 20s mpg. And be a stinking riot to drive, with more torque than the chassis can ever hope to keep up with.
But even if 295hp@4100 is NOT doable; this 360 combo will make a mountain more AVERAGE POWER from zero to 60, and likely still blow the 350hp@5700 318 into last Wednesday.

This is more than theory;
In it's Second iteration, my 367 ran a 223@.050 cam, and by it's trapspeed was making 335 hp. I geared it every which way you could imagine, That 223 cam peaked at a lil less than 5000, and I geared it to hit 60mph at 5140 with 3.55s, in 1.92 Second gear.
And that combo spun 295/50-15s all the way to 60 and beyond.
And that combo made fantastic fuel-mileage.
To make that power, I installed Edelbrock heads at about 11/1 compression, running 185psi cranking cylinder pressure.

I also ran this engine with 4.88s for 60=5150, now in THIRD gear. But this made first gear almost useless, being 3.09 x4.88=15.08
I never got to comparing ETs between these two on account of 15.08 gear was never gonna work for me, even tho the GVod knocked the hiway gear down to 3.81.
Those 4.88s were in there for less than two days.
I ran several other gears after that, but settled back to the 3.55s.


Now; I'm not laying hate on the stout 318!
I'm just telling you that on the street, for performance, it is almost never about rpm. The dyno curve might look fantastic, when it goes over the nose at 5700; but com'on, no streeter spends more than a few seconds up there, in any week, compared to hours at sub 4000.
So what I did to satisfy my craving for hi rpm, I just installed enough valve spring to go at least 7200, and enough free-breathing that it didn't choke too badly, and installed a GVod, and then hit 65 in FIRST-over, at 7000, splitting that GVod badboy;

Furthermore;
A stout NormallyAspirated 318, power-peaking at 5700, altho hard to build, and even harder to build with a powerful bottom end, can still be a barrel of fun, when running the right TC and gears. It will just be nearly impossible to cruise the hiway with, and will suck gas bigtime.
I highly recommend not to build such a combo.
If you do;
You may end up like me, with a shed full of parts that never worked out.
In your case, I would expect several rear gears, at least two convertors, maybe a trans or two, and eventually, you may convert it to a 4-speed or an overdrive.
I see a nice set of iron heads in there, at least one to three intakes and two or three carbs.
I also see the stock hood in there, swapped for one with a big hole in it to get some fresh air. I see a rad that couldn't keep up, a couple of fans, and a worthless viscous fan clutch. I see a pair of 14x7s, a pair of 15x7s, and a pair of 15 x8.5s. (15x 10s now on the car).. I see axles, chunks, a stock-width 8.75 with it's stock springs, and one or two sets of headers with the under-steering tubes smashed.
And I see a log-book of maybe 300 pages, detailing the hours you spent trying to make this work for street and strip.
And there might be a picture in there of your wife and kids, taken the last Christmas, before she left you.
Do yourself a favor; just drop a stock 5.9Magnum in your chassis, and drive..........
badaBOOM!
 
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Sorry, I think it is the amount of power and torque being forced on the rods. The more rpm, the more stress it will see. However, I think the amount of stress is different between a 300 hp engine and a 600hp engine. The higher the HP, the more stress it see at a given rpm. And to further complicate matters, I’m sure the break point of power, torque & RPM will be at a lower rpm with the higher hp engine. How is that for variables?
 
Sorry, I think it is the amount of power and torque being forced on the rods. The more rpm, the more stress it will see. However, I think the amount of stress is different between a 300 hp engine and a 600hp engine. The higher the HP, the more stress it see at a given rpm. And to further complicate matters, I’m sure the break point of power, torque & RPM will be at a lower rpm with the higher hp engine. How is that for variables?


The biggest load on the rod and bolts is going around TDC on the exhaust stroke. While HP does have an effect on rod and bolt life, the real killer is going around TDC on the exhaust stroke.
 
Thanks guys for all the info. Sounds like the stock rods are really strong. With that being said what is the max compression ratio they can see before it becomes an issue?
 
The biggest load on the rod and bolts is going around TDC on the exhaust stroke. While HP does have an effect on rod and bolt life, the real killer is going around TDC on the exhaust stroke.

Yup, much less resistance against the piston and rod assembly and it's totally flyin.
 
@mygasser It might be a plan for a future build. For so.e reason e85 is somewhat abundant around me. And with fuel prices going higher sure seems like a good idea. Pluse icon makes a dome piston for a 360. But even with big chamber heads and a somewhat thicker felpro gasket the motor would be 13.5:1 at the very least.

Not sure how happy those stock rods with a press fit wrist pin would be with that lol
 
I put a set of bushed fat-boy 318 rods in my 360 with KB107s, and that seemed to work out well for me. IIRC they came in at .012 deck height, which I had the machine shop mill off until the pistons were .005 proud.
The total chamber volume came in at 75.7cc and with a swept of 752, that makes a
Static Compression Ratio of 10.93. With an Ica of 61*, that made a calculated
Dynamic Compression ratio of 8.93@sealevel, and a predicted
Cranking cylinder pressure of 189psi.
I have read that the running pressure of a gasoline engine, at WOT, can vary between 1000 to 1500psi. But the
Effective Compression Ratio, what a throttled engine actually sees, might be 5/1,(or lower) which might be AROUND 100 psi or even less.

The point is this;
Some of the FABO crowd is running right around 200 psi cranking cylinder pressure, with alloy heads. But because of the late closing intake valve, The Dcr can be down around 9/1 or less and said engines run on pumpgas, on the street with appropriately sized carbs.
Since the dawn of HotRodding, the biggest problem has always been to get air thru the engine. On the Street, most of us run a 750ish carb, and the VE of our engines at the rpms we operate most at, only barely approach 90% at WOT never mind throttled. and
of all the fuels that can be burned in an Otto-cycle engine, gasoline is probably the most violent, and hardest to harness, so
IMO
a 14/1 alcohol engine shouldn't be that hard on rods; more likely it will be the rpm with heavy pistons, that kills them.
I have stock rods in my 11/1 367 with KB107s, that in the beginning of it's life, 1999, was regularly shifted at 7200, and it now has over 100,000 miles on her; so
IDK where exactly the limit is. But if I had a mind to, I personally, would use those bushed fat-boy 318 rods in a hi-compression, fire-breathing, alcohol street engine , without a worry.
But it seems, I'm a bit of rebel, in my thinking, in all things, so......... if you build it and it breaks, I ain't sending money,lol.
 

Thanks guys for all the info. Sounds like the stock rods are really strong. With that being said what is the max compression ratio they can see before it becomes an issue?
13-1 in my race motor...
 
I've run all different stock mopar rods to 7500 rpm's with no problems even the 273/ early 318 with hd rod bolts in circle track cars
 
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