Mechanical setup

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71Twister440

71Twister440

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Hello all, I am currently running a mildly built 440 in 71 duster, chasing some cooling issues. Running twin flex lite electric fans, messiere electric pump and an older 3 core what i think is a clean 26" radiator. I am hovering around 205/208 , so I ordered a 2 core alum from champion, am going to see if that helps, but am also starting to wondering if i should try a full mechanical setup instead. New waterpump , fan etc. Problem is I have 0 idea where to start, what pump, what size pulleys, fans etc. Can you all point me in the right direction for what size mechanical parts, maybe some part #s if you have them handy. Ive been doing a ton of research but I am spinning in circles trhing to find a consise answer. Thank you all in advance, this place is always a great help.
 
Factory cars did not overheat when they were new. The A/C package is tough to beat.
It is not exact to your application but...For a 440 B body with NO A/C, the lower pulley was approx. 7 1/4", the WP pulley (Single groove) was around 6".
For the A/C setup, the crank pulley is smaller....about 6 5/8" and the WP pulley is really small, like 5 1/8". The BB does use a different WP for A/C or NON A/C though.
I use a Flowkooler pump, an ECS/Speedcooling aluminum radiator, 26" core, 2 rows of 1 1/4" tubes, a fan shroud and an 18" fan on a Hayden 2749 clutch. I still run 195-205. I'm okay with that.
 
OldmanMopar posted this a few years ago, and I'm convinced I experienced it........

He claims that age, thermal cycling, "whatever" can cause the finds to crack loose from the tubes. Looking at the rad, you see nothing, it doesn't leak, and the tubes may flow fine.........They simply don't transfer heat

I had the original 67 2 row checked by a rad shop, they claimed it would "cool anything I put in the car." A stockish 360? Not so much, and later a 318. So in my travels I had a used "unknown" condition 73/74 2 row out of a slant. One summer day I threw that in there "just to see." The change was DRAMATIC

Don't know, but you might "tuck that away" back there somewhere
 
67Dart273 said:
Don't know, but you might "tuck that away" back there somewhere
Click to expand...

That killer/suspect guy in "Silence of the Lambs" did the same thing....tucked it under. He also danced around naked to the song "Goodbye Horses."
I would find another way to go, but that is just my opinion.
 
67Dart273 said:
OldmanMopar posted this a few years ago, and I'm convinced I experienced it........

He claims that age, thermal cycling, "whatever" can cause the finds to crack loose from the tubes. Looking at the rad, you see nothing, it doesn't leak, and the tubes may flow fine.........They simply don't transfer heat

I had the original 67 2 row checked by a rad shop, they claimed it would "cool anything I put in the car." A stockish 360? Not so much, and later a 318. So in my travels I had a used "unknown" condition 73/74 2 row out of a slant. One summer day I threw that in there "just to see." The change was DRAMATIC

Don't know, but you might "tuck that away" back there somewhere
Click to expand...
Thats what im hoping for, that the new alum champion 2 row 1 inch will solve it all, save me the time,money and effort changing over, but I want to be prepared if not, so I can hit the ground running and not miss a summer driving my car.
 
Kern Dog said:
Factory cars did not overheat when they were new. The A/C package is tough to beat.
It is not exact to your application but...For a 440 B body with NO A/C, the lower pulley was approx. 7 1/4", the WP pulley (Single groove) was around 6".
For the A/C setup, the crank pulley is smaller....about 6 5/8" and the WP pulley is really small, like 5 1/8". The BB does use a different WP for A/C or NON A/C though.
I use a Flowkooler pump, an ECS/Speedcooling aluminum radiator, 26" core, 2 rows of 1 1/4" tubes, a fan shroud and an 18" fan on a Hayden 2749 clutch. I still run 195-205. I'm okay with that.
Click to expand...
Good to know, thank you,
 
you can't get it under 205/208 with the fans on? That isn't that crazy hot but I wouldn't want to see much creeping past that.

you really can't beat the twin fan setup. Nothing pulls air at idle like that. Not to mention the advantage of running them when the car is off.

I'd question a couple things in your setup.

1. Are you running a restriction ring in your pump? You need to. I always run a gutted thermostat. You can buy the rings if you'd like but it made sense to me to just run the equivalent of an open stat.

2. Not all fans are created equal. Check out the stats on the electric fans you have.

3. Radiator. I've found the more the merrier here. I've seen first hand my 440 running around where yours does, changed to a bigger radiator and run 180-185 all day with ease. I run a BE cool 1,000hp model which is a bolt in designed for our cars.
 
roccodart440 said:
you can't get it under 205/208 with the fans on? That isn't that crazy hot but I wouldn't want to see much creeping past that.

you really can't beat the twin fan setup. Nothing pulls air at idle like that. Not to mention the advantage of running them when the car is off.

I'd question a couple things in your setup.

1. Are you running a restriction ring in your pump? You need to. I always run a gutted thermostat. You can buy the rings if you'd like but it made sense to me to just run the equivalent of an open stat.

2. Not all fans are created equal. Check out the stats on the electric fans you have.

3. Radiator. I've found the more the merrier here. I've seen first hand my 440 running around where yours does, changed to a bigger radiator and run 180-185 all day with ease. I run a BE cool 1,000hp model which is a bolt in designed for our cars.
Click to expand...

Hey rocco, what is a restriction ring? Never heard of it before !!
 
71Twister440 said:
so I ordered a 2 core alum from champion, am going to see if that helps, but am also starting to wondering if i should try a full mechanical setup instead. New waterpump , fan etc. Problem is I have 0 idea where to start, what pump, what size pulleys, fans etc.
Click to expand...
First off, the 205 degrees is fine if you can sit in traffic for an hour and it stays there. That being said......
The 2 core you purchased from Champion should be their American Eagle line. Just make sure that's what you have coming. If it is the regular Champion line, you are either going to get a small 2 row, 3 row or a 4 row. None of those are really an ideal upgrade for your situation.

If it is the large 2 row, then I think you'll see your temps come down enough to put this issue behind you. I'd certainly wait until then before you switch everything back to mechanical. However, if this whole issue was reversed (you had everything mechanical and running 205-208) I'd tell you to keep everything the way it is and just put a bigger radiator in there to bring those temps down to give you a little better feeling of comfort.
 
roccodart440 said:
you can't get it under 205/208 with the fans on? That isn't that crazy hot but I wouldn't want to see much creeping past that.

you really can't beat the twin fan setup. Nothing pulls air at idle like that. Not to mention the advantage of running them when the car is off.

I'd question a couple things in your setup.

1. Are you running a restriction ring in your pump? You need to. I always run a gutted thermostat. You can buy the rings if you'd like but it made sense to me to just run the equivalent of an open stat.

2. Not all fans are created equal. Check out the stats on the electric fans you have.

3. Radiator. I've found the more the merrier here. I've seen first hand my 440 running around where yours does, changed to a bigger radiator and run 180-185 all day with ease. I run a BE cool 1,000hp model which is a bolt in designed for our cars.
Click to expand...
I was running a gutted t stat, i tried a drilled 4-3/16, 185 stat with same results, i havent let it go above 208 because i deem that too hot, i will.keep you all posted with results from the new champion radiator
 
Kern Dog said:
Factory cars did not overheat when they were new.
Click to expand...

Bullshit they didn't.. a lot of the guys that are in the local racing and car scene are 60+ in age. They grew up with these cars and frequently talk about overheating issues.

I've run the bone stock setup on these and with any mods at all the heat can easily become an issue. My bone stock slant 6 never had an issue keeping cool.

Let's also not forget that all of these original parts are now old. Cooling systems, even good ones, break down over time. I've seen cars much newer than ours have issues related to system wear.

Bottom line is, a properly sized radiator, a quality pump, and properly sized and shrouded twin electric fans cannot be beat.
 
71Twister440 said:
I was running a gutted t stat, i tried a drilled 4-3/16, 185 stat with same results, i havent let it go above 208 because i deem that too hot, i will.keep you all posted with results from the new champion radiator
Click to expand...

When you say you didn't let it go about 108 did you shut it down or did you just run the fans to lower it?
 
71Twister440 said:
Fans ,I never just shut down a hot motor
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Well if the fans will keep it at 208 or less you don't really have a huge problem.

How far will it take it down to? My old setup would run about 200, a little less when idling. My new Be cool setup will pul it down to 180 without issue.
 
roccodart440 said:
Well if the fans will keep it at 208 or less you don't really have a huge problem.

How far will it take it down to? My old setup would run about 200, a little less when idling. My new Be cool setup will pul it down to 180 without issue.
Click to expand...
No i meant i have to shut down the motor and leave the fans and pump on to keep it down, maybe not idk I just assumed 208 area was too high, maybe if i just run it itll stay there and be fine, really wanted to be under 200
 
71Twister440 said:
No i meant i have to shut down the motor and leave the fans and pump on to keep it down, maybe not idk I just assumed 208 area was too high, maybe if i just run it itll stay there and be fine, really wanted to be under 200
Click to expand...

I turn my fans on at 205. I'll turn them off at 190.

I've used the auto controllers in the past. I just don't mind the manual toggle.
 
roccodart440 said:
Bullshit they didn't.. a lot of the guys that are in the local racing and car scene are 60+ in age. They grew up with these cars and frequently talk about overheating issues.

I've run the bone stock setup on these and with any mods at all the heat can easily become an issue. My bone stock slant 6 never had an issue keeping cool.

Let's also not forget that all of these original parts are now old. Cooling systems, even good ones, break down over time. I've seen cars much newer than ours have issues related to system wear.

Bottom line is, a properly sized radiator, a quality pump, and properly sized and shrouded twin electric fans cannot be beat.
Click to expand...


Sorry Rocco, I have great respect for your opinion, I apprenticed in the 60's, ran Early hemis, Max wedges, all sorts of transplants. Overheating was not a big issue unless the rad was plugged. I seldom heard of overheat issues till everyone started trying to re- invent the wheel, thinking electrically operated motors don't cause drag, and imho remains so.
 
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inertia said:
Sorry Rocco, I have great respect for your opinion, I apprenticed in the 60's, ran Early hemis, Max wedges, all sorts of transplants. Overheating was not a big issue unless the rad was plugged. I seldom heard of overheat issues till everyone started trying to re- invent the wheel, thinking electrically operated motors don't cause drag, and imho remains so.
Click to expand...

So to some degree we agree on some things. Break down of the systems cause overheating issues. When new, they had less problems, especially in stock trim.

The concept of drag is one thing, and it's debatable. I'm simply saying you can't get a mechanical fan at idle (or while the engine is off) to pull the kind of cfm's electrics will. Hence why modern cars use them. They also save space.

They do put more load on the electrical system. There is your added hp loss, vs. mechanical loss. SO who cares about that part, not me anyhow.
 
inertia said:
I think transverse engines brought on the need for elec fan, and it morphed, for good and bad . .lol. imho
Click to expand...

Yes, hard to pull air through an inner fender ! A lot of longitudinal engine built vehicles kept a mechanical fan, or a combo mech/ elect set-up long after FWD came about.
 
I went through all these cooling issues on my 499" trying different radiators, fans, water wetters, water pumps and anything else I could think of and nothing worked until I followed the Contour fan setup posted by Goldduster 318. No problem since, if interested do a search and solve your problem
 
red67gts said:
I went through all these cooling issues on my 499" trying different radiators, fans, water wetters, water pumps and anything else I could think of and nothing worked until I followed the Contour fan setup posted by Goldduster 318. No problem since, if interested do a search and solve your problem
Click to expand...
roccodart. I use to make and experiment w/ the restriction washers in my 406 sbc, just didn`t dawn on me when u said that ! ????
I don't have room enough for a ford contour fan, my 10,000 rpm flex fan seems like its going to be better than the steel blade fan I went back to, after trying the dual 14" fans.
 
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