Missed on this combo?

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Ironmike

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Well not sure if I missed in this combo, if Hughes missed or should I just be happy.
Here's the combo
LA 360 bored 4.040. Machined to perfection, lifter bores bushed. yad yada
Scat 4 inch forged crank with pro series I beams. ARP 2000 bolts
Icon forged flat tops .004 out of the hole(trying for 0 deck, but had to
machine more to get decks parallel and square) Hughes girdle, studs
mains and heads, tight quench.

Eddy closed chamber Hughes Full CNC 68cc chambers
2.08/1.6 backcut valves. Hughes 1.6 rockers with B3 geometry
correction.

Bullet solid roller .668/.668 259/265 dur. @ .050 108LSA
installed at 104 degrees per Bullet

Ported Super Victor with my old Holley HP950

So its a 11.4 o 1, 410, that I thought forsure would hit the 580HP mark. The pull you see here had AFR numbers from 12.7 to 12.9 through the run.

MY thoughts are maybe the Hughes heads do NOT flow as advertised...my dyno guy/machinist HATES the exhaust port. Thank God I got the heads free, but paid Hughes dearly for their CNC job.

He also felt it needs more carb. Said the old 950 doesn't flow 950. I know that. He told me after all the money spent I pretty much have to find a carb. He suggested BLP. He felt the carb was leaving 20 HP on the table.

I should mention that I dyno spinning my MP hi flow water pump AND the last pull we made he threw on a 1/2 inch open spacer and it made 567HP. I have no underhood room for a spacer so I really wasn't interested in going to a 1 inch.

AH yeah. Schoenfeld 1 3/4 dyno headers. Sunoco 93 Premium pump gas. I was not VP 100. Somehow that came up from last year.
dyno2.jpg


Well there ya have it. Do you think a new carb can help this thing?
 
Did anyone flow the heads besides Hughes? There's definately a problem. I've made more power with Stage 3 RPMs and a camshaft .100" shorter and 20* less duration at .050. A Comp street grind roller.
 
I agree with the BLP carb. They are worth every penny they cost. You could use a B4X in whatever size Joe tells you. They are very nice carbs.

It went a bit rich up top. You might have opened the main air bleed up a bit. Or, opened up the bottom emulsion hole by .004 and see where the BSFC went.

I agree it's a bit down on power. What did your machinist not like about the exhaust port?

Unless the exhaust port is absolute junk I think I'd rather have a single pattern cam. It could use some more duration on the intake side. Or try the cam at 108. It will close the intake later and give the cylinder more time to fill at higher RPM.

Defiantly big on the BLP carb. Google B4X 4150 carb and look at them. Work of art.
 
Went to 32, 34, then 36. Likes 30. My other motor liked 30, too.
Did not flow heads after they came back. Cam installed at 104 is Bullets instruction. Don't think it's "goofy". They know a little bit about cams. My Lunati is a 110 LSA, also installed 104, per Lunati. That's a full 6 degrees advanced.

No signs of detonation but now wishing I had tried some race gas. Really hate to tear this thing apart. Like replicaracer sind, it sure ain't no slouch, but I was thinking 580-590 easy.
 
Ironmike said:
Went to 32, 34, then 36. Likes 30. My other motor liked 30, too.
Did not flow heads after they came back. Cam installed at 104 is Bullets instruction. Don't think it's "goofy". They know a little bit about cams. My Lunati is a 110 LSA, also installed 104, per Lunati. That's a full 6 degrees advanced.

No signs of detonation but now wishing I had tried some race gas. Really hate to tear this thing apart. Like replicaracer sind, it sure ain't no slouch, but I was thinking 580-590 easy.
Click to expand...


It's not a slouch, but I think there is some in it, even if you just clean up the BSFC on top. Bullet bought out the UltrDyne grinds and Harold had a big time hard on for everything going in 6 degrees advanced so your cam being 4 ahead is not goofy or wrong. I think it could use more duration. Maybe retarding the cam would help. The recommended ICL is just a starting point.
 
That is near identical power to what mine made except I have a SFT, 750 carb and 1-5/8 pipes.
I would have thought it would make 580-590+
You have the cam and comp....
 
Ironmike said:
Well not sure if I missed in this combo, if Hughes missed or should I just be happy.
Here's the combo
LA 360 bored 4.040. Machined to perfection, lifter bores bushed. yad yada
Scat 4 inch forged crank with pro series I beams. ARP 2000 bolts
Icon forged flat tops .004 out of the hole(trying for 0 deck, but had to
machine more to get decks parallel and square) Hughes girdle, studs
mains and heads, tight quench. Nothing wrong here

Eddy closed chamber Hughes Full CNC 68cc chambers
2.08/1.6 backcut valves. Hughes 1.6 rockers with B3 geometry
correction. Did you examine the S.S.? If it is murdered like mine
and I'm betting it is--nothing will help except maybe more squeeze.

Bullet solid roller .668/.668 259/265 dur. @ .050 108LSA
installed at 104 degrees per Bullet More than enough to get the job
done.

Ported Super Victor with my old Holley HP950 My old ProForm 950
flowed 955 cfm dry. You should have been able to try the dyno facilities
"good" carb. I have few on hand because I hate to see a customer waste
a session fighting a shitty carb. Doubt your carb is the issue though.

So its a 11.4 o 1, 410, that I thought forsure would hit the 580HP mark. The pull you see here had AFR numbers from 12.7 to 12.9 through the run. Your not that far off but the torque should be way better-torque curve looks like the induction can't keep up with the cam.

MY thoughts are maybe the Hughes heads do NOT flow as advertised...my dyno guy/machinist HATES the exhaust port. Thank God I got the heads free, but paid Hughes dearly for their CNC job. The exhaust port is the best part of their machining if its the same as mine, its not too bad-could be better though.

He also felt it needs more carb. Said the old 950 doesn't flow 950. I know that. He told me after all the money spent I pretty much have to find a carb. He suggested BLP. He felt the carb was leaving 20 HP on the table. Shoulda stuck a real good known quantity on there and found out before spending big bucks on a trick carb.

I should mention that I dyno spinning my MP hi flow water pump AND the last pull we made he threw on a 1/2 inch open spacer and it made 567HP. I have no underhood room for a spacer so I really wasn't interested in going to a 1 inch. A crazy spacer combo is not the way to get there.

AH yeah. Schoenfeld 1 3/4 dyno headers. Sunoco 93 Premium pump gas. I was not VP 100. Somehow that came up from last year.View attachment 1715025295 Hate Sunoco always the least power producing at least North of the border.

Well there ya have it. Do you think a new carb can help this thing? Doubtful.
Click to expand...

Mike, you could have opened the lash to .020"+ and if power improved-cam is wrong. If those manifold vac numbers are accurate then there is a slight restriction but not 20-30 hp worth. All the really good engines I've seen are -1.5 to -1.7 vac at full song. I would be surprised to see it pick up anywhere if you backed the cam up--in fact the torque is already lacking at the very bottom and it aint gonna improve-UNLESS you have too much cylinder pressure as is and too much negative work is happening at the current ICL. Better fuel could have answered some of these questions, as well as collector arrangement--3" would help a ton, I'm betting you had a monster 3.5" on those headers. Oh and I hate not having air turbine data on a DTS. Just a few thoughts. J.Rob

p.s. Click on quote for more.
 
What was the gain from your old iron headed 408. And is this the same dyno that was used on both
Just curious
 
I agree the low end torque is low about 100ftp at 4000 and I would of guessed it would still be pulling hard up past 6300 with those ported big valve heads .but I cant tell you why it is not my GUESS would be Hughes fine port work .
 
I think the trick to this would be the head flow #'s at high lift.
Your Dyno pull peaks about 700 RPM early for what the rest of your combo looks like to me. If it sustained head flow through the .668 lift of your cam, I'd think it'd keep pulling, and hit your numbers.
is the .668 with the 1.6 rockers factored in?
I have seen many "race heads" that popping a big 2.08 or 2.1 valve into actually shrouds the head flow on a 4.030 bore. thus actually hurting top end...ask me how i know.lol
 
Ryan Johnson told me years ago that if the cylinder head chambers were efficient and you had good quench that an engine wouldn't need a lot of timing and could run on lower octane fuel.

I like big tube/collector headers on 4" engines that are making some steam. I have Hedman Huslers with 1 7/8" tubes and 3 1/2" collectors on my Dart. My 408 had Edelbrocks ported by Curtis Boggs, Ryan Johnson freshened them and installed 2.055" intake valves, a 260/264 @ .050", ground at 106 in at 102, .627/.633" Hughes flat solid, 11.4-1, port matched Victor and a Bigs 950 HP. At 3260# with a 4.10 gear and a 325 radial it ran 6.57 in the 1/8 with a 1.38 60' on pump 93. It would run low 6.60's in street trim. BTW I shifted that engine at 6400, it ran no faster shifting any higher. Dave Hughes told me it should've been shifted around 7000 with that cam and that I was running out of head flow.

A 950HP can make good power, my 434 made 703 with the same 950 that was on the 408 with just a small jet change and down a couple thousands on the high sped bleeds. The 434 also made 30 more HP on pump 93 than Renegade Crate 98 leaded race gas. The carb was tuned for the 98 and no changes were made other than the gas. So higher octane fuel is not always a plus.

How good is the work on your Super Victor? From what I've been told by guys that do intakes is that the Super Victor takes a bunch of work to make it good and a ton of work to make it great.

It would be interesting to see the OP's engine dynoed with a bigger carb (even an 850 dp), 1 7/8" headers with 3 1/2" collectors and a port matched Victor. I think it would see a nice gain.
 
I did the Super Victor myself. Didn't touch the plenum. Nothing fancy, just port matched and opened up pretty deep into the runners. Didn't go hog wild or anything but looks to me like it should flow pretty good.
Done a few of these. Certainly no expert, but they've all turned out fine.
Looked down thru the plenum with a scope and the port match is real nice.

Damn if we never checked cranking compression. I'm sitting here last night pounding my head for forgetting.

The header collectors are 3 1/2.

.668 is with 1.6 rockers.

I'm almost at the point I don't want to put it in the car.......I think the low end torque is bugging me most.
 
Ironmike said:
I did the Super Victor myself. Didn't touch the plenum. Nothing fancy, just port matched and opened up pretty deep into the runners. Didn't go hog wild or anything but looks to me like it should flow pretty good.
Done a few of these. Certainly no expert, but they've all turned out fine.
Looked down thru the plenum with a scope and the port match is real nice.

Damn if we never checked cranking compression. I'm sitting here last night pounding my head for forgetting.

The header collectors are 3 1/2.

.668 is with 1.6 rockers.

I'm almost at the point I don't want to put it in the car.......I think the low end torque is bugging me most.
Click to expand...



You have a 3.5 collector with a 1.750 primary tube? I'm all for bigger collectors but that seems big for the primary pipe size. I always say most collectors are too small and too short but yours seem big.
 
That's the dyno header. I'm running TTI stepped, which I WAS going to upgrade to their 1 7/8..........
but I'm not sure what the heck I'm gonna do now. Maybe dump it in the river....

Frustrating.

Deep down, I just have a feeling those heads just do not flow what Hughes says. Just a feeling.
 
The power curve looks right to me. Peak torque at 4900 and peak HP at 6300, this is the usual 1500ish RPM split an engine like this should have. I agree with RAMM on the carb, 1.7" of vacuum at peak power the carb is not holding it back.
 
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