My 440 Build. Which intake and WHY ?

Discussion in 'Mopar General Discussions' started by 1BAD72, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. 1BAD72

    1BAD72 Active Member

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    Below are two Hotrod Magazine dyno test results on a mild build 383 that I recently found comparing the Edelbrock Performer to the Performer RPM intake manifold. Although I have a 440 and not a 383, I think the info is relevant for comparison purposes.

    I am currently trying to decide which will work best for my build and for how I use my car. I would like to get a few more opinions on which Performer intake and why. I am not going to be making any additional performance upgrades to the engine in the future. I drive the car weekly, enter local shows, cruise-ins, occasional A to B locally, no track plans. I have a lot of people recommending the RPM but they can't tell me why it's the one for my build other than it "breathes better" on their 10 second, 600 hp track car and "won't run out of air above 5,500 RPM".... lol, OK but did you listen to what my build and use is? I am looking for low end street performance, great throttle response, pin you back in your seat stuff. I doubt the motor will spend much time up near 5,500 RPM and probably no time above that with my cam, gears and the rest of the build. Also I have enough room to close my hood with either intake.

    My build is the following:
    I have a 1975 Chrysler 440 V8 in my 1972 Duster.
    MOPAR purple cam #P4529270A
    268/284 degrees
    Duration at .050 inch lift is 228 int./241 exh.
    Lift: .450/.458
    Edelbrock E-Street Performer heads (75cc combustion chamber so CR about 9.3)
    Edelbrock 800 cfm Performer carburetor
    TTI long tube headers
    323 gears with Sure Grip (posi)
    727 Torqueflite with stock stall and B&M shift kit
    Mopar electronic pointless ignition (Orange box).

    The dyno data on the Hotrod Magazine 383:

    PERFORMER (Rated IDLE-5500 RPM)
    Peak torque:

    455 lb-ft @ 3,800
    Peak horsepower:
    439 hp @ 5,900
    Power at 3,000 rpm:
    418 lb-ft, 239 hp
    Power at 5,000 rpm:
    426 lb-ft, 406 hp
    Average 2,500-4,500:
    427 lb-ft, 288 hp
    Average 4,500-6,000:
    415 lb-ft, 413 hp
    Average 2,500-6,000:
    422 lb-ft, 341 hp

    PERFORMER RPM (Rated 1500-6500 RPM)
    Peak torque:

    457 lb-ft @ 4,000
    Peak horsepower:
    451 hp @ 5,900
    Power at 3,000 rpm:
    408 lb-ft, 233 hp
    Power at 5,000 rpm:
    442 lb-ft, 421 hp
    Average 2,500-4,500:
    424 lb-ft, 287 hp
    Average 4,500-6,000:
    428 lb-ft, 426 hp
    Average 2,500-6,000:
    425 lb-ft, 346 hp

    Here is the entire article from Hot Rod if interested. Thanks in advance...

    20180412_111636.jpg
     
  2. 451Cuda

    451Cuda Well-Known Member

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    RPM
     
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    • Dubob

      Dubob Well-Known Member

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      I’m going to assume your car has the factory hood. How are you installing the engine? Conversion mounts? I ask because different adapter mounts may position the engine slightly higher or lower in the bay. I installed a 440 in my Demon. Factory flat hood. The Performer RPM is a very snug fit due to additional height at the carburetor mount flange, think hood clearance. I ended up using a 1.75” (iirc) drop base air cleaner. Along with that drop base comes other issues, the way the fuel line routes, linkage issues going to carburetor etc, due to clearances. I used a Direct Connection K-frame, which is a spool engine mount. This gave me some lee way on the positioning of the engine. I have never run the Performer intake so I can not help you out there. The advantage of the Performer is I believe it’s modeled off the factory intake but saves you weight, it’s about stock height. I personally feel the Performer RPM is a good all around intake, but there are other issues that come with the height that have to be worked out. For your usage I do believe most people will recommend the dual plane manifolds. Someone with more experience will roll along and add more info for you. My engine set up is 10:1, edelbrock rpm heads, lunati 237 int, 243 exh @.050 .566 int .577 exh solid roller running a 3:54 rear with 28” tire. I have run two passes at the track best time 12:78 (car has more but I need to work with it more) but the thing is I can cruise the interstate and flow with traffic with no issues (70-80mph). I know it’s not a direct answer for you but just giving you my experiences.
       
    • dukeboy_318

      dukeboy_318 Our Lives, Our Fortunes and Our Sacred Honor. FABO Gold Member

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      RPM is a very nice choice. That said, if you can find one, the Holley Street dominator sits just a tiny bit lower but performs as good if not better than the RPM.
       
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      • Fisher

        Fisher Old Guy with a Cool car.

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        At some point you may want to upgrade cam compression head work etc. Buy the rpm performer If i am not mistaken, the orange box is limited to 5000-5500 rpm i think as well. Stay with a 750 cfm carb as well.
         
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        • YY1

          YY1 Well-Known Member

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          Look at your numbers and you can answer the question.

          The "regular" intake is better below 3000 RPM.
           
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          • 1BAD72

            1BAD72 Active Member

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            Thanks for that info. My motor is already in place. The previous owner changed the K frame and used Hamburger motor mounts. I recently pulled the motor to install the E-Street heads and reinstalled it. No way to install them in place with the TTI headers on and no way to remove the headers with the motor in place. At least not in my car. There won't be a next time. This was a fun but challenging project. I am not concerned with the intake height for closing the hood but but if I'm going to get an RPM just to pick up about 10 or 12 HP in an RPM range I rarely visit what's the point? I'm sure high compression and big cam motors will see a bigger difference between the two but in my case the gains on the RPM are small plus there is a small loss on the low end. Another issue is that depending on which tests you believe, using a dropped base air cleaner costs HP. But yet, most people recommend an RPM for a mild build... but don't say why. Edelbrock says to use the Performer (no RPM). They say I'll get much better throttle response. Summit and JEGS say RPM... but don't say why.
             
          • 1BAD72

            1BAD72 Active Member

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            Thanks for the reply but in my post I stated that I have no intention of modifying this particular car any further. If I was going to upgrade it in the future then I could see recommendations to go with the RPM. But I'm not planning to.
             
          • dukeboy_318

            dukeboy_318 Our Lives, Our Fortunes and Our Sacred Honor. FABO Gold Member

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            Sounds like you have your answer then. :thumbsup:
             
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            • 1BAD72

              1BAD72 Active Member

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              Exactly, and every part of my build makes power in the "under under 5,500 range" but yet I have local car friends, pro's and forum friends mostly telling me to get the RPM... but none give a reason. Figured I'd lay it all down here and see what folks think. I'm hoping to get some reasoning rather than just "RPM".
               
            • Fisher

              Fisher Old Guy with a Cool car.

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              Leave the stock cast iron intake on it then, will work just as well.
               
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              • 1BAD72

                1BAD72 Active Member

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                I think I do too, but I'm away from the car for a while so I thought it would be a good time to get some wisdom from the forum to confirm it. Maybe someone already went down this road and can share their experience. Or better yet someone ran both intakes in the past and has an opinion based on their actual A/B of the intakes.
                 
              • dukeboy_318

                dukeboy_318 Our Lives, Our Fortunes and Our Sacred Honor. FABO Gold Member

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                I've not ran the performer and the RPM on a big block, but I have on a small block. mid range and higher was better with the RPM vs the performer. That said, if you're not looking for every single horse, I don't think you'll go wrong with the base performer either.
                 
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                • 1BAD72

                  1BAD72 Active Member

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                  Thanks for that... do you recall the cam and compression ratio? Just wondering if it was closer to stock or built.
                   
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                  • dukeboy_318

                    dukeboy_318 Our Lives, Our Fortunes and Our Sacred Honor. FABO Gold Member

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                    360, stock heads with larger valves and a 3 angle job. Compression was roughly 9:1 at the most, the cam came from an edlebrock top end kit that included the performer manifold and a 600 edlebrock. I'd later swap to the RPM but Didn't change the cam. I don't recall the cam specs but being that it came with the off the shelf top end kit, I'd guess it was their match to the performer cam. Timing was also retarded about 5 degrees.
                     
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                    • roccodart440

                      roccodart440 Well-Known Member

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                      There is no reason to run a performer on a 440 mopar, none. You engine literally doesn't operate under any load from idle to 1500rpm. Even with the stock flash stall you are above that if you decide to mash the go pedal. Typical too around town it will see idle to 3000, maybe 3500. They make the same power in that range but the RPM beats it up every where else. THe 440 doesn't lack torque, it lacks HP.

                      If you truly don't really care about performance just run a stock intake, you'll never know the difference.
                       
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                      • YY1

                        YY1 Well-Known Member

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                        Pretty sure it's been disproven that the "regular" eddy intakes are "just a copy" of the OEM part.

                        They're good for a few points of HP/TQ over stock.

                        ...and then there's weight.


                        On the OP's 383 printout it's 10# to the better at 3K.

                        What is it below that, where 70- 80% of the driving will occur?

                        I wish dyno charts would start lower, and not at highway cruise with 3.55 gears.

                        Some of us enjoy 0-60.
                         
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                        • toolmanmike

                          toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                          Dang, I wish I could find the build components of my buddies 440 in his bee. +.030, ported cast heads, headers, fairly mild Comp hydraulic, The old CH4B dual plane Edelbrock and a 750 Holley. Just a tick less than 468 horse and like 500 ft. lb. I don't know all the particulars but it is a +.030 over late 60's 440 with 9.5/1 hyper pistons, ported stock cast heads (not familiar with the casting numbers for big block), a CH4B Edelbrock intake, a Demon carb (I believe it's a 750) and a stock electronic dist. The cam is a Comp XE275 HL-10 with .525/.525 275°/287° @ 110° c/l. I
                           
                          Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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                          • Frnknsteen

                            Frnknsteen FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                            Here is my opinion on the matter. I am building a 440 for my Charger and just bought the regular Performer. My reasons were this:

                            1. I wanted an intake that sat lower for hood clearance. I had the Edelbrock Torker II on it when I drove it when I was younger and had to run a drop base air cleaner to fit under the hood. The Performer was the lowest flange height
                            2. I don't get on my cars like I used to and don't often exceed 5000-5500 RPM. The regular Performer had a suggested performance band of Idle to 5000, compared to the 1500-6500 of the Performer RPM.
                            3. I thought of sticking with the stock intake, but didn't want to have to run an adapter plate to run an aftermarket carb.
                            4. I am converting to 4spd and plan to use stock 906 heads and stock HP manifolds instead of headers, so I don't need the extra flow of the RPM.

                            Now that I bought the Performer, I noticed some issues I wish I had noticed before I bought it. Mainly that it has the EGR ports that need to be plugged off (RPM doesn't have them), and it has the stock thermal choke horn (RPM doesn't have it either). Wouldn't be a big deal, but the secondary shaft on my carb hit that choke horn and wouldn't let me seat the carb on the intake, meaning I either needed to run a spacer for it to clear (which I didn't want to do in the first place) or hack off the top of the choke horn I will never use. I chose to machine off the top of the choke horn (took about an inch off the top of it).

                            I am running a Performer RPM on the 400 in my '67 Barracuda. I will say it works well on there. In my opinion the power band on that motor comes in at more like 2200. If I am cruising along and step on the pedal, you can feel it come alive at a little over 2000 rpm. I decided to try the regular Performer on the 440, but if I don't like it, I will be replacing it with a RPM.

                            If it were me, I would go with the Performer RPM, for the following reasons.

                            It looks better!! It doesn't have the choke horn to interfere with throttle shafts or double pumper fuel lines (which you shouldn't have an issue with on a Edelbrock Performer carb), and like was said before, the power range difference is minimal. If you are running a purple cam, aluminum heads, and full tube headers, I would put on the RPM intake that will match up better with the rest of your engine choices.

                            My 2 cents!
                             
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                            • 451Cuda

                              451Cuda Well-Known Member

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                              Forgot to add the "why"...you're building a Duster, not a grain truck.
                               
                              Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
                            • fishmens67

                              fishmens67 Well-Known Member

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                              The engine will peaked at 5300, no need to run rpm. I'd run the performer just to reduce weight.
                              with the 440 and small cam, there will be plenty of torque throughout the rpm range
                               
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                              • 12many

                                12many Well-Known Member

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                                I'd do some plenum work on the stock intake, assuming that's what you have and that the carb you're using doesn't need an adapter plate. David Vizard has written extensively on gains possible just by doing plenum grinding. Spend the money elsewhere or save it.
                                 
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                                • roccodart440

                                  roccodart440 Well-Known Member

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                                  a couple things to chew on.... 440's, unless they have a ton of cam run out of wind way before 6500rpm. That doesn't mean you shouldnt' run the rpm because it's advertised powerband is 1500-6500. Just like cams, don't rely on those numbers. My new 440 runs a ported victor and will never see over 7k RPm, yet that intake claims 3500-8500. Just another tidbit.. I didn't pick that intake, my engine designer did. He's about the number one guru on this site.
                                   
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                                  • famous bob

                                    famous bob mopar misfit

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                                    look at it again ! Any doubt now ?
                                     
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                                    • rrvolare

                                      rrvolare 19Swinger69

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                                      Somebody said they do not make the Performer RPM any longer ????? i just bought one ....