My doomed 408 build

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BlooDSMeaR

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Location
Medford Or.
Like I said I have a doomed build I am hoping to save.
My build so far is
Eagle fully forged bottom end. All the machine work needed. No issues.

Top end stock out of the box Edelbrock heads.
comp cams retro hydro roller cam. part #20-603-09
lifters are Howards cams 91764
crane cams adjustable gold rockers

All cylinders ring in right around 190 to 200# calculated 11 to 1 CR by the engine builder.

I have had it built and ran great with a comp cams hyd flat tappet cam, cam lobe wiped after about 100 miles.
Pulled engine, took to machine shop, had them tear down and find the problem. I didn't want to have to deal with a flat cam again so I upgraded to a hyd roller cam.

After they built it again with the roller set up and on the Dyno; cylinder 8 exhaust lifter collapsed. The shop replaced lifter and re-ran on dyno. Sadly lost power due to the slightly smaller cam. Took engine home and installed In my car. I drove the car around about 30 miles and the engine started to miss. I pulled into the driveway and had a nice top end clatter. I have done a compression test, and it is still where it should be. pulled rocker cover off found Number 8 exhaust rocker lose and I believe the lifter has collapsed again.

I talked to the machine shop, and due to it being a race engine there is no warranty. They nicely told me to go pound sand. ( I did pay for the second build as well and now they are done taking my money)

I am out of money for this project and race season is 2 months away.

What do you guys think I should do?
I have to pull the heads to take the lifters out, I spent daymn good money on the roller set up, but I don't want to deal with another collapsed lifter. As it sits If I pull it apart and go as cheap as possible it's still going to cost about $1K for parts.
I want to go solid flat tappet with eddy heads my max valve lift I can go is .570/ The guy at the shop had told me I don't want to go bigger then .540 so I don't wind up with coil bind.
It is my understanding that no matter what I do, I will need to get the springs upgraded. Who actually knows what the springs are. I dont trust the shop guy anymore. (there are other reasons on top of the stated problems)


I am up for suggestions
 
kind of odd that it's the same lifter that is having issues?

Could always go Solid Roller.

Solid Flat tappet springs aren't far off rate wise from Hyd Rollers.. SOlid rollers they get pretty stiff. Depends on what springs you have.
 
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BlooDSMeaR said:
Like I said I have a doomed build I am hoping to save.
My build so far is
Eagle fully forged bottom end. All the machine work needed. No issues.

Top end stock out of the box Edelbrock heads.
comp cams retro hydro roller cam. part #20-603-09
lifters are Howards cams 91764
crane cams adjustable gold rockers

All cylinders ring in right around 190 to 200# calculated 11 to 1 CR by the engine builder.

I have had it built and ran great with a comp cams hyd flat tappet cam, cam lobe wiped after about 100 miles.
Pulled engine, took to machine shop, had them tear down and find the problem. I didn't want to have to deal with a flat cam again so I upgraded to a hyd roller cam.

After they built it again with the roller set up and on the Dyno; cylinder 8 exhaust lifter collapsed. The shop replaced lifter and re-ran on dyno. Sadly lost power due to the slightly smaller cam. Took engine home and installed In my car. I drove the car around about 30 miles and the engine started to miss. I pulled into the driveway and had a nice top end clatter. I have done a compression test, and it is still where it should be. pulled rocker cover off found Number 8 exhaust rocker lose and I believe the lifter has collapsed again.

I talked to the machine shop, and due to it being a race engine there is no warranty. They nicely told me to go pound sand. ( I did pay for the second build as well and now they are done taking my money)

I am out of money for this project and race season is 2 months away.

What do you guys think I should do?
I have to pull the heads to take the lifters out, I spent daymn good money on the roller set up, but I don't want to deal with another collapsed lifter. As it sits If I pull it apart and go as cheap as possible it's still going to cost about $1K for parts.
I want to go solid flat tappet with eddy heads my max valve lift I can go is .570/ The guy at the shop had told me I don't want to go bigger then .540 so I don't wind up with coil bind.
It is my understanding that no matter what I do, I will need to get the springs upgraded. Who actually knows what the springs are. I dont trust the shop guy anymore. (there are other reasons on top of the stated problems)


I am up for suggestions
Click to expand...
Did you take it somewhere in Medford?
 
Wow. Sounds like he knows there was screwed something up with number eight that he didn’t like the looks of. Have the lifter bores been revised? Did it wipe out the cam lobe on #8 exhaust first? If it did, you know your fitment in that bore is bad. Unfortunately, it’s not really a secret that Chryco had some of the worst lifter bore machining tolerances and stack up tolerances during manufacturing. What year of block is it? UMWA negotiations in the late seventies really didn’t help matters out. I had a coworker that had an uncle that worked on the truck assembly line in Detroit then, he had all kinds of tales of sabotage when things got ugly during contract renewals.
 
After the flat tappet cam wiped out all the metal is in the engine, it's in the oil galleys and it's very fine pieces of metal they get in the lifters and wedge the piston and it just keeps pounding down till it hits the bottom of the lifter body. Now you have a collapsed lifter there will be more to come I have seen it happen more than once. When the second guy fix the motor did it get completely disassembled and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned.

Take the lifter apart and I bet there is metal in every lifter
 
I was wondering the same thing. I had read about the second teardown and rebuild, but didn’t know if it was a thorough as it needed to be.
 
brian6pac said:
After the flat tappet cam wiped out all the metal is in the engine, it's in the oil galleys and it's very fine pieces of metal they get in the lifters and wedge the piston and it just keeps pounding down till it hits the bottom of the lifter body. Now you have a collapsed lifter there will be more to come I have seen it happen more than once. When the second guy fix the motor did it get completely disassembled and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned.

Take the lifter apart and I bet there is metal in every lifter
Click to expand...
The shop did a comple teardown and rebuild after the wiped lobe. The lobes that wiped were on the number 3 cylinder.
Both times the roller lifters failed, it was on the #8 cylinder.
 
need much more info: what kind of oil pressure are you running? Are you POSITIVE ALL the oil gallery plugs are installed? What kind of oil are you using? Is this LA or Magnum? Have you searched archives for threads on proper rocker geometry? Also, there can be problems with insufficient retainer to guide (and seal) clearance in addition to coil-bind. All the aforementioned problems (and probably some more i failed to mention) are fairly common in builds by "non-Mopar fluent" engine builders.
 
I would go solid flat tappet with the EDM hole in the lifter. You need to make sure that the lifter spins when turning it over by hand. With the valve train lashed to spec and run high zinc oil. I don’t like hyd lifters for any performance build.
 
At this point in the game, the path of least resistance is to replace the hyd roller lifters with solid rollers, and run it at about .004” lash.
I’d also make sure you’re running adequate spring pressure.

You’ll need:
-Solid roller lifters
-new longer pushrods
-springs suitable to use with the solid rollers
-gaskets

Option B-
Solid flat tappet cam, edm lifters, suitable springs, pushrods.
This will require breaking in the cam with inner springs removed, and a high quality break in oil.

The springs that come with the rpm heads aren’t suitable for anything but the mildest of solid flat tappet cams.

There is an ever growing list of threads, videos, etc, of people who have had less than stellar results with retrofit hyd cam conversions....... enough so they really aren’t something I can confidently recommend any longer........ unless you’re willing to get the lifter bores bushed.

If you’re going to use/using a block that originally came with hyd roller lifters....... you have a better chance of success imo.
 
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Dwayne, you mean the blocks with taller lifter bores are better suited for roller lifters, solid and hydro? If so, what Kind of solid lifter would you suggest for a Magnum Block? THANKS!

Michael
 
One thing that comes to mind is that a Blueprint 408 crate engine with their warranty is looking pretty sweet about now.
Your builder sounds like a real dick to me.
He should make it right, lord knows how much you spent there on this build.
If it's a parts defective problem, he could back charge the supplier in yours and his behalf.
To me, the only reason that he wouldn't stand by his product/build is if he screwed up.
That's the thing that truly sucks about some people.
Good luck, i hope it turns out well for you in the long run............
 
PRH said:
At this point in the game, the path of least resistance is to replace the hyd roller lifters with solid rollers, and run it at about .004” lash.
I’d also make sure you’re running adequate spring pressure.

You’ll need:
-Solid roller lifters
-new longer pushrods
-springs suitable to use with the solid rollers
-gaskets

Option B-
Solid flat tappet cam, edm lifters, suitable springs, pushrods.
This will require breaking in the cam with inner springs removed, and a high quality break in oil.

The springs that come with the rpm heads aren’t suitable for anything but the mildest of solid flat tappet cams.

There is an ever growing list of threads, videos, etc, of people who have had less than stellar results with retrofit hyd cam conversions....... enough so they really aren’t something I can confidently recommend any longer........ unless you’re willing to get the lifter bores bushed.

If you’re going to use/using a block that originally came with hyd roller lifters....... you have a better chance of success imo.
Click to expand...
If you were replacing a set of retro Hyd rollers, which manufacture of solid rollers would you use in a LA block with stock lifter bores and stock oiling?
Thanks
Jim k
 
If I had a motor that was all together, and wanted to give myself the best chance of not having to grind on the block for link bar clearance, I’d use something like the Comp 8043’s.
These have the link bar located on the inboard/pushrod side of the “tower”.
There are probably a few suppliers of that style of lifter...... so pic your favorite.

I have no experience with magnum blocks at all...... so I can’t offer any advice with regards to the lifters for those.

I will say this.......... maybe I’ve been lucky, but I’ve had very few problems with flat tappet cams failing through the years.
The fact that you can’t get the roller lifters out of an LA motor if it has Edelbrock heads on it(without removing the heads) would def impact my decision on how I built it.
It would steer me towards a solid flat tappet cam.
 
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PRH said:
If I had a motor that was all together, and wanted to give myself the best chance of not having to grind on the block for link bar clearance, I’d use something like the Comp 8043’s.
These have the link bar located on the inboard/pushrod side of the “tower”.
There are probably a few suppliers of that style of lifter...... so pic your favorite.

I have no experience with magnum blocks at all...... so I can’t offer any advice with regards to the lifters for those.

I will say this.......... maybe I’ve been lucky, but I’ve had very few problems with flat tappet cams failing through the years.
The fact that you can’t get the roller lifters out of an LA motor if it has Edelbrock heads on it(without removing the heads) would def impact my decision on how I built it.
It would steer me towards a solid flat tappet cam.
Click to expand...

You can get the crane solid rollers in and out with edelbrock heads on. Not sure on the crane part #, but they cost almost $800. My oldest son ended up with mine when his comp lifters needed grinding on the block to fit.[ The older comps, not the 8043's ] He had a comp hydraulic lifter collapse in his daily driver. So I swapped him my cranes for his comps. Now I will have to grind my block.
 
I called and spoke with Tim @ Hughes engines. He spent about a half hour getting all the specs and my parts build list.
His recommendation was to pull the hyd roller set up, sell them to recover some of the cost. Then go with a solid flat tappet cam. EDM lifters. With my build he gave me a cam recommendation I wrote down. He wants me to change the springs as the ones that come with eddy heads "suck". Totalbill for parts will be around $700.
My original build cost was $6000.
The second rebuild after the eaten cam lobe was $3000.
Now I'm looking at another grand. I might have it running mid summer.
I should have built a big block.
 
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I’ve read that when putting solid rollers on hyd roller cam you run the springs the cam calls for, even with solid rollers on it.
 
BlooDSMeaR said:
I called and spoke with Tim @ Hughes engines. He spent about a half hour getting all the specs and my parts build list.
His recommendation was to pull the hyd roller set up, sell them to recover some of the cost. Then go with a solid flat tappet cam. EDM lifters. With my build he gave me a cam recommendation I wrote down. He wants me to change the springs as the ones that come with eddy heads "suck". Totalbill for parts will be around $700.
My original build cost was $6000.
The second rebuild after the eaten cam lobe was $3000.
Now I'm looking at another grand. I might have it running mid summer.
I should have built a big block.
Click to expand...
Like I was saying in post 12 these guys are local and old school. After I gave them a stroker kit they probably did another $3, 000 worth of work and for about 4, 000 my strokers has been killing it trouble-free for the last four years.
Two and a half years ago I was finally able to break down and afford the Hughes rockers. I was having a little trouble getting them to completely clampdown and they gave me some very off the cuff information that if I would have listened to would have ruined the $700 rockers immediately. If I would have listened to them I would have ate those $700 rockers. Don't get me wrong I'm completely happy with the Rockers and they're great product. But they're very far away and cannot get Hands-On and see what you're talking about so it's hard for them to give advice. Again PIR is right up on I-5. Certainly wouldn't hurt to give them a call to cross-check Hughes. ie another perspective. At the very least check out their website and their running processes. It would almost be impossible to send out a bad motor...
 
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the springs supplied with the RPM heads........ when used with a cam they are suitable for.
Using the .575 max lift recommendation from Edelbrock can definitely get you into trouble.
Imo, the best use for those is an under .525 lift hyd cam that doesn’t have real fast ramps, used in a motor that won’t be required to turn a lot of rpm.
 
I’m leaning towards roller cams more and more as I get older but there’s nothing wrong with solid lifter cams when set up right. I have 7500.00 in my R3 422 build including the block and it’s gone 9.42 with a solid lifter .650 lift cam with EDM lifters. 5.98 in the 1/8.
 
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