Need a higher CFM fan, no room

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oldirish

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I have a 72 Duster with a 360agnum engine, A518 OD transmission, sniper 2 efi and Vintage Air AC. 3 row Champion radiator and the low profile electric fan.

Normal engine temp is 170 to 190 depending on ambient.

AC increases temp around 20 degrees.

As soon as I get under 40mph it starts getting warmer. Slow driving/stop lights gets it over 220, that's without the AC on.

I've talked to the Champion Cooling tech and they said it's an airflow issue and I probably need a 3000 cfm fan. My current fan is 2in.thick and the 3000 cfm is 3.5 in.

I need to do something with my water pump pulley to shorten it by 1.5 in.

I'm sure lots of guys have been through this.

What are my options?

Screenshot_20260407-162533.png
 
You need a better radiator. One with two rows of at least 1" tubes, but 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" if you can find one. The issue is with three and four row radiators, the front rows of tubes act like an air block and do not allow proper air flow. A two row with WIDE tubes will cool it well. Or, you can keep buying crap the radiator company is selling you.
 
Here is a experience I had. My Duster was constantly running hot. I tried everything. I even drilled the electric pump and put a petcock in the to to bleed it seen in the picture. Took it to a friends Nascar shop and they installed a bung in the rad and we moved the cap to the intake to make sure the engine was full. Braided hoses , Trans coo;er . Oil cooler . recovery tank and a catch can under the fender . All that **** under the hood to try and get it to run cooler. All looked nice but didn't change a thing. $$$$


It had a new large core Be-cool radiator and twin fans. $1300.00. Here is a picture.

1775605569706.jpeg


Come to find it was the radiator not flowing air due to being over pressured . at some point . The tubes were swelled round. Installed the new radiator and it ran cool for 2 weeks.
 
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Here is a experience I had. My Duster was constantly running hot. I tried everything. I even drilled the electric pump and put a petcock in the to to bleed it seen in the picture. Took it to a friends Nascar shop and they installed a bung in the rad and we moved the cap to the intake to make sure the engine was full. Braided hoses , Trans coo;er . Oil cooler . recovery tank and a catch can under the fender . All that **** under the hood to try and get it to run cooler. All looked nice but didn't change a thing. $$$$


It had a new large core Be-cool radiator and twin fans. $1300.00. Here is a picture.

View attachment 1716530105

Come to find it was the radiator not flowing air due to being over pressured . at some point . The tubes were swelled round. Installed the new radiator and it ran cool for 2 weeks.

View attachment 1716530106

I just bought my 3rd radiator for the new car. And yes it also destroyed the Fans, coolers and the pump.
That makes me sad every time I see that picture.
 
I have a 72 Duster with a 360agnum engine, A518 OD transmission, sniper 2 efi and Vintage Air AC. 3 row Champion radiator and the low profile electric fan.

Normal engine temp is 170 to 190 depending on ambient.

AC increases temp around 20 degrees.

As soon as I get under 40mph it starts getting warmer. Slow driving/stop lights gets it over 220, that's without the AC on.

I've talked to the Champion Cooling tech and they said it's an airflow issue and I probably need a 3000 cfm fan. My current fan is 2in.thick and the 3000 cfm is 3.5 in.

I need to do something with my water pump pulley to shorten it by 1.5 in.

I'm sure lots of guys have been through this.

What are my options?

View attachment 1716530082
What pulleys are those and do you know the ratio? They could be under driving your water pump.
 
Back on track. Your car cools at speed, which indicates you DONT have some junk swollen radiator tubes, so what you have is a low speed air flow problem. The mechanical fan and shroud is the first step in increasing low speed airflow. There ARE electric fans that could cool it, but there are not the ones you find mail order, and they will be bulkier than the mechanical setup typically.
 
Things you absolutely, positively DON'T need-

- A 2 row radiator with 1" or larger tubes
- A mechanical fan
- A pusher fan

Things you need to check-

- pulley drive ratio for the water pump
- number of vanes on your water pump (standard or high volume)

I ran a 26" 3 row Champion radiator for years, they're fine. If you have a 26" radiator, you can run the Ford Contour dual electric fan set up that I run. It flows ~3500 cfm on low speed and ~5k on high speed. I almost never need the high speed. It is ~3.5" thick, but because it's a dual fan they're offset from the water pump
 
Do what you want, but I went down that "electric fan" route about 15-20 years ago. I went with A Griffin radiator and their fan/shroud setup that was supposed to be good for up to 600 HP. No matter what I did, the setup would not cool properly. I kept the radiator and **** canned the entire fan setup. I went with a stock shroud and a stock style fan setup. I was able to sell the fan/shroud setup for about 20 cents on the dollar. No more overheating problems. So, you guys all use electric fans as much as you want. they are not for me. They might work for some, but they did NOT work for me. Factory setups seemed to work OK for a 440 in a 69 Barracuda.
 
The problem with electric fans is that pretty much no one actually bothers to use a fan that pulls the CFM actually needed. That includes the manufacturers that sell them, including Griffin, which used little toy electric fans that only put out a pathetic 1694 or 1730 CFM depending on the version. So, close to HALF of what is probably the bare minimum CFM to cool the car properly (~3,000 cfm). People buy a radiator and electric fan set up from a manufacturer like Griffin thinking that it's a properly set up combination, but fail to actually look into the requirements. And Griffin set up a lousy fan package.

That's not a problem with electric fans in general, it's a problem with people not using the correct fan for their application. If you put a mechanical fan on the car that only moved 1730 CFM it would fail to cool the car as well (the factory mechanical fans typically pulll about 4,000 cfm, depending on options).

Pretty much all of the radiator and electric fan "kits" out there have fans that don't move enough CFM. There are electric fans out there that cost several hundred dollars and do not flow enough CFM to keep one of these cars cool, so, spending a ton of money on a brand name electric fan doesn't guarantee success either. You need an electric fan that can pull at least 3,000 cfm for most Mopar applications, and that's a minimum number that needs to increase with how much horsepower the engine makes and how the car is used. When I was out stuck in traffic in 110° weather the high speed setting on my fans was kicking in, so, that was taking 5k cfm to keep my car in the temp settings programmed into my fan controller.

I can absolutely guarantee that there are electric fans out there that will work just fine if your cooling system is set up properly. I can also guarantee that everyone that says they had an electric fan that didn't work and switched back to a mechanical fan screwed the pooch on their electric fan set up. Period. Either not enough CFM, or a lousy controller for the fan, not enough amperage in the electrical system to run the fan at full capacity, etc, etc.

Like I said, I've been cooling the 400+ hp all iron 340 in my Duster with a '95-2000 Ford Contour dual electric fan set up for over a decade now. I still commute with the car, I've driven it in 110° weather in traffic, it runs whatever temp settings I program into my Dakota fan controller. It had a Champion CC374 in it for most of that time, so just a 3 row 26" Champion radiator. It finally started leaking, so now it has a KKS374 in it from KKS. It's essentially the same size core with the same size tubes.

Back on track. Your car cools at speed, which indicates you DONT have some junk swollen radiator tubes, so what you have is a low speed air flow problem.
This I agree with. The car cools at speed which means it's usually not a radiator problem. It is likely a low speed air flow issue, ie, the fan pulls less than 3k cfm which isn't enough. The pulley ratio might be adding to this, especially with the AC system, depending on what that ratio is and what water pump is being used. Air flow at speed can mask more than one issue

The mechanical fan and shroud is the first step in increasing low speed airflow. There ARE electric fans that could cool it, but there are not the ones you find mail order, and they will be bulkier than the mechanical setup typically.

This isn't true. You can do more than enough with an electric fan set up. And there are off the shelf, cheap *** reproduction OE fans that will absolutely do the job and not be any bulkier than the mechanical system is.

The fans on my car are just Dorman reproduction fans for a Ford Contour, #620-104. Price is up to $166 bucks now, I think they were a bit more than $100 when I bought them in 2014.

This is my fan set up in 2014 with the Champion radiator
img_1558_zps3b79216a-jpg.1715187776


This is the same set of fans in 2024, now on a KKS 374 radiator (26" core, 3 row radiator)
IMG_7503.jpeg


I still run the same Dakota PAC- 2750 controller, I run the same 1:1 March pulley set up and the same high volume water pump as I did 40k+ miles ago. Note that the OE Mopar ratio for a non-ac car with a high volume pump was .95:1, and for an AC car was 1.3:1 but with a standard water pump (spin the fan faster, but keep the water flow similar)

The contour fan set up is 3" deep in the middle, and 3.5" to the back of the fans, but they're offset from the water pump pulley.
img_5433-jpg.1716507908
 

So, you spent a couple grand on an accessory drive system, but lose like 10% or more of your fan efficiency just by not running a fan shroud that costs a hundred bucks?

Oh, and how much power are you losing by running that mechanical fan direct all the time? I mean seriously, any time you're doing 25mph or better you don't need a fan turning at all, and you're running it at full rpm every second regardless of any cooling need for it.

And the corrugated radiator hose. I mean c'mon man. You've got 5x more money into your accessory drive system than I do into my entire cooling system, pulleys included, and you run a generic corrugated radiator hose?

That picture is like the perfect illustration how you can spend a colossal amount of money and not get a meaningful performance improvement out of it.
 
So, you spent a couple grand on an accessory drive system, but lose like 10% or more of your fan efficiency just by not running a fan shroud that costs a hundred bucks?

Oh, and how much power are you losing by running that mechanical fan direct all the time? I mean seriously, any time you're doing 25mph or better you don't need a fan turning at all, and you're running it at full rpm every second regardless of any cooling need for it.

And the corrugated radiator hose. I mean c'mon man. You've got 5x more money into your accessory drive system than I do into my entire cooling system, pulleys included, and you run a generic corrugated radiator hose?

That picture is like the perfect illustration how you can spend a colossal amount of money and not get a meaningful performance improvement out of it.

sir. sir. the appropriate nomenclature is: cheeze-dick accordion hose

ex: this guy over here, asking 30K on a dart. black bay, hong kong phooey aluminum rad from e bay and the standard issue cheeze-dick accordion hose. real confidence inspiring. couldn't be bothered to spend the $17 on the right hose and do it right. wonder what else he's cheaped out on...
 
There's a couple people on this site that need to get together, admit their forbidden love for one another and get the sticky part over with.

Or use the ignore button.

Y'all pick.
 
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The problem with electric fans is that pretty much no one actually bothers to use a fan that pulls the CFM actually needed. That includes the manufacturers that sell them, including Griffin, which used little toy electric fans that only put out a pathetic 1694 or 1730 CFM depending on the version. So, close to HALF of what is probably the bare minimum CFM to cool the car properly (~3,000 cfm). People buy a radiator and electric fan set up from a manufacturer like Griffin thinking that it's a properly set up combination, but fail to actually look into the requirements. And Griffin set up a lousy fan package.

That's not a problem with electric fans in general, it's a problem with people not using the correct fan for their application. If you put a mechanical fan on the car that only moved 1730 CFM it would fail to cool the car as well (the factory mechanical fans typically pulll about 4,000 cfm, depending on options).

Pretty much all of the radiator and electric fan "kits" out there have fans that don't move enough CFM. There are electric fans out there that cost several hundred dollars and do not flow enough CFM to keep one of these cars cool, so, spending a ton of money on a brand name electric fan doesn't guarantee success either. You need an electric fan that can pull at least 3,000 cfm for most Mopar applications, and that's a minimum number that needs to increase with how much horsepower the engine makes and how the car is used. When I was out stuck in traffic in 110° weather the high speed setting on my fans was kicking in, so, that was taking 5k cfm to keep my car in the temp settings programmed into my fan controller.

I can absolutely guarantee that there are electric fans out there that will work just fine if your cooling system is set up properly. I can also guarantee that everyone that says they had an electric fan that didn't work and switched back to a mechanical fan screwed the pooch on their electric fan set up. Period. Either not enough CFM, or a lousy controller for the fan, not enough amperage in the electrical system to run the fan at full capacity, etc, etc.

Like I said, I've been cooling the 400+ hp all iron 340 in my Duster with a '95-2000 Ford Contour dual electric fan set up for over a decade now. I still commute with the car, I've driven it in 110° weather in traffic, it runs whatever temp settings I program into my Dakota fan controller. It had a Champion CC374 in it for most of that time, so just a 3 row 26" Champion radiator. It finally started leaking, so now it has a KKS374 in it from KKS. It's essentially the same size core with the same size tubes.


This I agree with. The car cools at speed which means it's usually not a radiator problem. It is likely a low speed air flow issue, ie, the fan pulls less than 3k cfm which isn't enough. The pulley ratio might be adding to this, especially with the AC system, depending on what that ratio is and what water pump is being used. Air flow at speed can mask more than one issue



This isn't true. You can do more than enough with an electric fan set up. And there are off the shelf, cheap *** reproduction OE fans that will absolutely do the job and not be any bulkier than the mechanical system is.

The fans on my car are just Dorman reproduction fans for a Ford Contour, #620-104. Price is up to $166 bucks now, I think they were a bit more than $100 when I bought them in 2014.

This is my fan set up in 2014 with the Champion radiator
img_1558_zps3b79216a-jpg.1715187776


This is the same set of fans in 2024, now on a KKS 374 radiator (26" core, 3 row radiator)
View attachment 1716530210

I still run the same Dakota PAC- 2750 controller, I run the same 1:1 March pulley set up and the same high volume water pump as I did 40k+ miles ago. Note that the OE Mopar ratio for a non-ac car with a high volume pump was .95:1, and for an AC car was 1.3:1 but with a standard water pump (spin the fan faster, but keep the water flow similar)

The contour fan set up is 3" deep in the middle, and 3.5" to the back of the fans, but they're offset from the water pump pulley.
img_5433-jpg.1716507908
Not sure why but my system doesn't seem to have the same amount of space between the radiator and the water pump. I appreciate the info, I definitely have an airflow issue at low speeds. I'm going to look closer at your fan design, see if I can find a drawing of it online. If it is 3" it's not going to fit. Thanks for the feedback.

Screenshot_20260408-082425.png


Screenshot_20260407-162533.png
 
The problem with electric fans is that pretty much no one actually bothers to use a fan that pulls the CFM actually needed. That includes the manufacturers that sell them, including Griffin, which used little toy electric fans that only put out a pathetic 1694 or 1730 CFM depending on the version. So, close to HALF of what is probably the bare minimum CFM to cool the car properly (~3,000 cfm). People buy a radiator and electric fan set up from a manufacturer like Griffin thinking that it's a properly set up combination, but fail to actually look into the requirements. And Griffin set up a lousy fan package.

That's not a problem with electric fans in general, it's a problem with people not using the correct fan for their application. If you put a mechanical fan on the car that only moved 1730 CFM it would fail to cool the car as well (the factory mechanical fans typically pulll about 4,000 cfm, depending on options).

Pretty much all of the radiator and electric fan "kits" out there have fans that don't move enough CFM. There are electric fans out there that cost several hundred dollars and do not flow enough CFM to keep one of these cars cool, so, spending a ton of money on a brand name electric fan doesn't guarantee success either. You need an electric fan that can pull at least 3,000 cfm for most Mopar applications, and that's a minimum number that needs to increase with how much horsepower the engine makes and how the car is used. When I was out stuck in traffic in 110° weather the high speed setting on my fans was kicking in, so, that was taking 5k cfm to keep my car in the temp settings programmed into my fan controller.

I can absolutely guarantee that there are electric fans out there that will work just fine if your cooling system is set up properly. I can also guarantee that everyone that says they had an electric fan that didn't work and switched back to a mechanical fan screwed the pooch on their electric fan set up. Period. Either not enough CFM, or a lousy controller for the fan, not enough amperage in the electrical system to run the fan at full capacity, etc, etc.

Like I said, I've been cooling the 400+ hp all iron 340 in my Duster with a '95-2000 Ford Contour dual electric fan set up for over a decade now. I still commute with the car, I've driven it in 110° weather in traffic, it runs whatever temp settings I program into my Dakota fan controller. It had a Champion CC374 in it for most of that time, so just a 3 row 26" Champion radiator. It finally started leaking, so now it has a KKS374 in it from KKS. It's essentially the same size core with the same size tubes.


This I agree with. The car cools at speed which means it's usually not a radiator problem. It is likely a low speed air flow issue, ie, the fan pulls less than 3k cfm which isn't enough. The pulley ratio might be adding to this, especially with the AC system, depending on what that ratio is and what water pump is being used. Air flow at speed can mask more than one issue



This isn't true. You can do more than enough with an electric fan set up. And there are off the shelf, cheap *** reproduction OE fans that will absolutely do the job and not be any bulkier than the mechanical system is.

The fans on my car are just Dorman reproduction fans for a Ford Contour, #620-104. Price is up to $166 bucks now, I think they were a bit more than $100 when I bought them in 2014.

This is my fan set up in 2014 with the Champion radiator
img_1558_zps3b79216a-jpg.1715187776


This is the same set of fans in 2024, now on a KKS 374 radiator (26" core, 3 row radiator)
View attachment 1716530210

I still run the same Dakota PAC- 2750 controller, I run the same 1:1 March pulley set up and the same high volume water pump as I did 40k+ miles ago. Note that the OE Mopar ratio for a non-ac car with a high volume pump was .95:1, and for an AC car was 1.3:1 but with a standard water pump (spin the fan faster, but keep the water flow similar)

The contour fan set up is 3" deep in the middle, and 3.5" to the back of the fans, but they're offset from the water pump pulley.
img_5433-jpg.1716507908
One more thing, what amperage alternator are you running?
 
My 74 Duster has a 360 (10:1 compression) with Vintage Air AC and a Sniper 2. I went with a Cold Case 26 inch 3 row and dual high volume fans from Cold Case. I have a high volume water pump and a 180 degree high flow thermostat.
The AC is a recent addition, but sitting at idle it never get over 190.
Look at dual fans to resolve your clearance issue and definately check your water pump pulley diameter.
 
Thanks, all good advice.
Was already planning on going to a high flow thermostat and water pump. I'll see if I can find the specs on that dual fan to look for the dimensions.
 
Thanks, all good advice.
Was already planning on going to a high flow thermostat and water pump. I'll see if I can find the specs on that dual fan to look for the dimensions.
Again, verify your pully ratio. Coolant movement is as important as air movement across the core.
 

Crank pulley size may be part of the issue. My water pump pulley is the same as yours, but my crankshaft pulley is 6 1/2.
 
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