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Better grind that out quick as that's a flow killer........
How much energy does it take to convert a liquid to a gas before you burn it? How much energy does the flame front use to convert liquid droplets to a gass as the burn proceeds across the chamber? If the burn is slowed down because of a poor mixture how does that affect timing requirements for peak cylinder pressure? It needs more timing doesn't it..........
I think if it was a full race top end head....................you wouldn't find that Swoosh at the guide. Something that is designed to idle and full throttle........probably not going to have any kind of air twisting in the port. The LS has to idle,get good mileage and pass Emissions. Waste some energy to make it swirl so that the fuel stays or helps it to stay in suspension at part throttle. This is just my opinion.
Its a means to an end. On a full race top end head Darin is still trying to achieve the same thing but going about it differently.
It’s also in an AFR 220 cnc small block Chevy race head. My buddy and I were both very unhappy with that head as shipped but with some work they ran 10.50@3650 pounds NA. I took about half the wing out as part of the work.
I know what’s in there and why. Damn dude, you are so fixated with timing you can’t see the forest for the trees. You even used a flow bench with a swirl meter? Did you ever think that other smart people looked at Widmer’s stuff, maybe even tried it and didn’t get the same results, or are they all stupid and Widmer is the only smart guy out there? Doesn’t matter what you do, you can only reduce total timing as much as plug location, chamber geometry and rod/stroke ratio allows. Don’t forget bore size. A 4.700 bore will take more TIME than a 3.700 bore. Mental masturbation about 21:1 compression ratios is all well and good but surely one would think others would be using any thing they could to gain that, and yet...
Your know you're right. Mixture quality has no bearing on timing requirements. Darin should go and get a flow bench because that will tell him everything he needs to know about internal combustion engines.
Did you even Watch them videos? Do you have a problem with Darin??? In the first video he said that he has never found gains by creating swirl,AND NO ONE HE KNOW HAS EITHER! He "said" you want to keep as much "energy" in the port as you can. That Swirl ground into the combustion chamber HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENERGY OR LOSS OF ENERGY IN THE PORT.
Yeah I've watched all of them, multiple times. Did he? in what part because I didn't hear it. He must know everyone especially all the OEMs that have much bigger budgets to do all that research and the same guys who designed that lS7 head to work that way and what happens when head porters touch it? It loses all its torque and doesn't work in the lower rpms anymore. But it flows more air. The fuel has a long way to travel from when it leaves the carb to when you ignite it. Have a think about De-atomization and why he mentions it and then think about OEM stuff and why they do it. And everything to do with the energy released at the time of ignition. He's trying to get you to look past just the air component. So why does that LS7 make less power now with more air. What you need to think about is "what" swirl actually does. Stop chasing more air and start chasing a better mixture............one that doesn't De-atomize and burns quickly and efficiently. Obviously his wet flow bench showed him what the fuel was actually doing in the port and in the chamber and it wasn't what his flow bench was telling him it would do.
If were taking about Shiv LS's then your right! As i said in my first post. If your trying to get low speed/part throttle/fuel economy I/M.......THEN, YES THAT IS WHY THE MANUFACTURE DOES IT. If you take it to a full race head......... I will NOT do any of them things well..........There is more power to be made by not Doing a swirl dance in the intake trak......
He must know everyone especially all the OEMs that have much bigger budgets to do all that research and the same guys who designed that lS7 head to work that way and what happens when head porters touch it? It loses all its torque and doesn't work in the lower rpms anymore. But it flows more air. OK one more thing and then i'm done. he was NOT taking about the ls7 or any ls or LT head for that matter he was taking about a High end race heads like he would make for you if you had that kind of cash. If you do a valve job and change the shape of that valve job in any way, you could loose 20-50 HP. For the record, I'm sure i could kill HP on any ls head if i tried.
Guess you didn't watch the 1st Video because at 22.30 he specifically talks about a "hyper critical short turn on the LS7 and LS3. Again he's talking about "WET FLOW" and how people who think in "AIR FLOW" mess it up and wonder why it doesn't make power. HES LOOKING TO CONTROL WHAT THE FUEL DOES NOT JUST THE AIR!!!!! It doesn't matter if you use swirl or not as long as you can maintain a homogenous mixture at the time of ignition. Think about what it "DOES" not what it "IS" its about the quality of the MIXTURE.
I have NEVER said that. What I’m saying is you are dead wrong if you think you can take a chamber that needs let’s just say 35 total and drop it down to 32 or 30 because you have added swirl or some bullshit like that. Ain’t happening. I had a customer (actually more than one because guys can’t read plugs worth a shit and they listen to their buddy who can’t read a plug either) who are just like you. They get so excited over a number they shit the bed when they think that number doesn’t match what the next it is doing. So this customer, he was a real smart feller. He had all the answers. We dyno the engine and send it out and I go to the track to actually SEE what this dude is doing. The car runs almost exactly what the dyno says it should. A month later I get a call from another customer telling that guy lost .2 and they think we did something wrong. So we tell him to bring it in and it goes back on the dyno and sure enough it’s down on power. After screwing around a bit, the guy running the dyno walks over and says “when we sent this out it had 34 total on it, and now anything over 29 total and it drops power like a rock and from 26 to 29 it makes the same power”? So I say pull a plug and let’s see. I can see walking across the shop the plug is so hot you can weld with it. Like 3 ranges too hot. Now I have to piss away more time to go pull his file and see WTF it went out with for a plug and sure as shit, not only did he change brand of plugs, he was 3 ranges too hot. I walk over to the shelf, grab the plugs it went out with and back on the dyno it got almost all the power back and it did it at the 34 total it went out with. To get it all back we had to take fuel out of it because they were using that extra fuel to cool the red hot plugs. The customer was called and he came in and looked over the numbers. He was glad the power was back, but he said straight to my face there was no F’ing way he was going to run the cold plugs (a they weren’t “cold” they were the CORRECT plug) and jack all that extra timing in it. So we put everything back the way it was when it came in, made him sign another waiver and sent him down the road. My point is you can’t claim anyone and everyone is running too much timing because their fuel system is jacked up, and that by the miracle of swirl, twirl, tumble, swumble and any other made up nonsense you won’t reduce total timing any more than what the geometry says it should be. Seen way too many guys get caught up in this and it’s just silly. If you tune to a number or for a number you’ll get in trouble. And, I’m not even going to address the FACT that you can have 2, 3 or even more degree variance in what your timing light may say. Add that in and you can get sideways right quick thinking you have to achieve a certain total timing number or you have an issue. The plug will tell you exactly what it wants.
Read my comment inside the caption.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So the last part there i only kinda agree. If you can burn more fuel.......or cause a swirl to get ride of a vortex in the combustion chamber that make your more power.... I don't have that kind of equipment or knowledge to know if a swirl i created made it better or NOT. Make your Swirl port and prove it on the track, that it made it run better. IF it does i will say GREAT JOB. The point is that you can get more fuel in the combustion chamber if you don't slow it down, trying to make Swirl.(natural aspirated) In a full race car that's a plus. In "Direct Injection", gas or diesel, Swirl IS A ABSOLUTE MUST.
When looking for something else on u-tube and found this. Its 3 years old. Power and Speed interviewing Darin Morgan. Get a Samich and a drink it almost 2 Hours long.
Is that the podcast with the dudes from New Jersey or wherever over there? You didn’t post a link so I’m flying blind here.
I have been so jammed up around here doing nothing and haven’t taken the time to watch any of the links I posted yet. I finally actually did something in the shop yesterday for a change. Winter sucks. Especially when you have three layers of ice on the ground. At least it finally melted off.
Sorry about that guys. I tested it and it works.
Well ok here i go again. WARNING!!!!! this interview with Darin Morgan is 2 hours and 40 minutes long. That's not a miss print! Took me two days to watch it all. lot of good questions and answer YouTube. But well worth it.................If...................You are a Darin Morgan stockier like me!
Woops forgot the link again.
That's what SHE said...
It's not about Ferd's Pro Stock Just another question and answer session.
Well just watched another one with Darin It's another one from Drag Boss. click on the video above and then click on his page. Also has two other people on this one. A LOT of Ford talk but i enjoyed it any ways. WARNING! This one is 3:03:29 long
A long, long time ago, I was an Oldsmobile fanatic. Joe Mondello was the guru. My '71 Cutlass Supreme looked like Grandma's car, but ran mid 12's with a small block.