1. Mike69cuda

    Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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    Have been chasing this for a long time and it is driving me CRAZY! 360 engine in 69 Cuda with Saginaw pump. Idles fine and steers lock to lock with no noise. Somewhere above about 2500 rpm it starts squealing. Can’t really decide if it sounds like a belt squeal, or more of a screeching.

    PS belt runs the water pump and PS. When I take this belt off, the noise stops.

    I have changed the whole front end of the engine from 69 Frankenstein belt setup to 70 up. Changed water pump, fan clutch, water pump pulley and power steering brackets. Both PS hoses new. Still did it. Just changed out power steering pump. Still does it.

    Fluid level is good. What else could it be? Kind of sounds like it could be air getting in ps system, but where from? Could it be the steering gear? I am about to start drinking more than I do already....
     
  2. Dana67Dart

    Dana67Dart Like a fine wine, only getting better with age! FABO Gold Member

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    Does it do it hot vs cold?
    Does it do it in the driveway at 2500 rpm?
     
  3. furyus2

    furyus2 Well-Known Member

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    I think you answered your own question. If it squeals, and you take the belt off, and it stops, there's your answer. Try a new belt, increase the belt tension, put belt dressing on it.
     
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    • Mike69cuda

      Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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      Does it at any temp. Does it whether the car is moving or not.

      Changed belts, wiped pulleys down with paint thinner.

      Ran belt at average tension, got it really tight, no change.

      I’m thinking it is not belt related, but will experiment some more.
       
    • furyus2

      furyus2 Well-Known Member

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      I know that you have a small block, but my B body had the stock pulleys on my 440. And the ps belt went around the crankshaft pulley, to the WP, and then to the PS pulley. It didn't have enough of the belt wrapped around the pulleys, and it would squeal. Maybe post a picture.
       
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      • Mike69cuda

        Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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        Will post a pic tomorrow
         
      • MoparMike1974

        MoparMike1974 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        Inspect the pulley closely and see if its worn. If a pulley gets worn the belt can ride too low in the groove and bottom out.
        Paint in the groove can also cause them to slip.
         
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        • RedFish

          RedFish Well-Known Member

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          Pic will help. I dont know what set up you have. P/S belt on my 67 is crank and p/s only. It is a wider section belt than the water pump/alternator belt. Wrong/belt will run in the bottom of the p/s pulley instead of driving its sides. Advance auto clerk did try to sell me a wrong belt once. I had to edumcate him. More to it than belt length alone.
          You might get to squealing and toss a cup of water on the belts. If the squeal stops for a second or changes at all, there is you squeal. In the textile mill I learned to use sidewalk chalk to dry wet belts, diagnose contact, etc... but this practice is dangerous.
           
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          • Mike69cuda

            Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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            Pictures of my belt setup. Hard to get really good views. It is very close to the standard 70 up a/c belt setup.

            I did the water experiment and the noise went away. Spraying water on it was a great idea! Thanks Redfish!

            I am using belts with cogs. Could this be part of my problem?

            27CE98ED-F545-4EF9-B5BB-750BBFB8814A.jpeg

            EAA5DF83-3457-4976-A322-352B1D504E3E.jpeg

            C89A8ADE-D15F-4A25-A78A-995AF66EB9CE.jpeg

            9E178FB2-D97F-49A3-AAEF-2505E6463647.jpeg
             
          • MoparMike1974

            MoparMike1974 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Go to the auto parts store and buy a can of belt dressing. Sometimes it works, sometimes its only temporary.
             
          • 4spdragtop

            4spdragtop FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Get a belt with out cogs, that could be it.
             
          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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            Look at the angled parts of the belt that contact the pulley surfaces. Are they shiny and crystalized looking? I bet they are. They harden over time usually before the belt wears out and there's no amount of belt dressing, jisim, or anything else you can put on them to make them quiet. I'd also recommend the non cogged, solid type belt.

            ...and don't be a cheap ass. Get a good name brand.
             
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            • str12-340

              str12-340 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              I do presume that your PS belt hits the crank, the water pump and the PS pump.
              I tried buying some belts for my small block from local parts stores and the on line companies and could not find a belt without a the little section cuts in it and even new belts like that would squeal. I ended up going to a restoration supply house (year One, I think) to get the old style belts.
               
            • Mike69cuda

              Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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              The pulley surfaces are good and the alignment seems good. The belts sit properly in the groove. I have tried two different belts, one pretty new and one brand new. Both were Gates belts. The belt routing looks no different than any other three pulley belt setup.

              Back in the day we had belt dressing that looked like a giant crayon. Now all the stuff is in spray cans and gets everywhere when you use it. Do they still sell the crayon stuff?

              I am going to look for a belt without cogs.
               
            • RedFish

              RedFish Well-Known Member

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              So now we know its the belt and not the gear or pump. Scratching my head here. I haven't been under the hood of later model aluminum water pump set up for a lot of years. My memory suggests the p/s belt was in the back, closest to block. Matched pair of belts in front. We certainly cannot trust my memory. Maybe the belt is too narrow and running in the bottom of the sheathe. Notched belt design is more flexible so they rarely need run in period and readjust like solid belt over small diameter sheathes would. They do forfeit some sheathe contact/traction.
               
            • Mike69cuda

              Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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              I bought a solid Dayton belt with no cogs this morning from Grainger. Will try it as an experiment.

              Going to sand all the paint off the belt grooves in the pulleys.

              The ps belt is on the front on the 70 up small block with double belt ac. The double belts pass behind the water pump pulley.

              This appears to be a game of micro inches. Now I guess I understand why everyone went to serpentine belts....
               
            • cudamark

              cudamark FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              I had a couple of similar problems with belt squeals. I was only able to get rid of the problem by bead blasting the pulley grooves to give the belt a bit more bite. As the belt wears in the pulleys it will probably get slick enough to slip again, but, should last a few thousand miles. Oh, I also had a couple of engines where the fan clutch was locked up and had that same problem. You may want to check that on yours. I tried to use one of those clutch fan eliminators on my tow truck to get more air flow from the fan, but, it squealed so bad at higher RPM's, that I had to take it off and go back to a clutch.
               
            • MoparMike1974

              MoparMike1974 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              The cloth covered belts dont have the problem with squeeling. Most lawnmower shops carry them.
               
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              • Mike69cuda

                Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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                Problem solved! Well for the moment at least....

                I used a wire wheel and stripped all paint out of the ps pulley belt groove. Got most of the paint out of the other two with acetone.

                I also put the no cog Dayton belt on. It is a 3/8 belt rather than a 13/32 so it sits a little lower in the pulleys.

                Since I did two things at once, I am not sure which one or both fixed it, but there is no more squeal.

                I will put the cog belt back on in a week or two to close the loop on my troubleshooting.

                Does anyone know if you can run the Dayton electric motor type belt In an automotive application? It was the only no cog belt I could find. It was only $8, so it was worth that for an experiment even if I cant use it long term.

                Thanks everyone for all the help! Hopefully I won’t hear belts squealing in my sleep anymore....
                 
              • Mike69cuda

                Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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                Did some research and figured out the Dayton belt I bought was a 3L series which is for fractional horsepower motors, so probably not a good long term solution.
                 
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                • JoePole1

                  JoePole1 A dude in a B body FABO Gold Member

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                  Having the same issue as Mike @Mike69cuda. Getting a screech around 2300 RPM. Definitely the ps/fan/crank set up because I removed the belt and goes away. Tried 2 belts that I had to no avail. Notice some plat in ps pump shaft so got a replacement. StI fire up the car and it's making the same noise above 2000 RPM. Yes I ran it without the belt and definitely from power steering pump. Tried another used belt also. Same results. I did notice that my ps pulley is not lined up with the crank pulley prior to pump replacement. Checked crank OK. Now I have been running this set-up for over 10 years. Not sure how the alignment is off except a bent bracket. Is it possible that something is missing at the long spacer? Anyone have a picture of their set-up?
                   
                • cudamark

                  cudamark FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  How about a picture of your setup?
                   
                • JoePole1

                  JoePole1 A dude in a B body FABO Gold Member

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                  Couldn't load yesterday. Here is the before and after pulley alignment. You can see the washers behind the water pump bolt and sandwiched between the rear pump bracket and the engine bracket in the after pic.

                  Before
                  IMG_20200626_110735_hdr.jpg

                  After
                  IMG_20200626_142608_hdr.jpg
                   
                • Mike69cuda

                  Mike69cuda 64 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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                  One of my friends has done the same thing with washers behind the bracket on the water pump on his 340 duster.

                  I will get some better pictures of mine. I always post low resolution pictures because the big ones don’t seem to load well.
                   
                • JoePole1

                  JoePole1 A dude in a B body FABO Gold Member

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                  Finally got new Gates belt installed and guess what?? Same screech over 2200 RPM. I have been trying to remedy this for a few months now and could use some ideas here. Just to recap what I have done. Have been running this set-up for 10 years with no issues. If I remove PS/Fan/Crank belt, I do not get noise. Replaced belt with another used one I had. Flipped sides with it as well. Tried different belt tensions. Noticed pulleys not aligned so shimmed to align. Tried soap trick. Tried water trick. Replaced Saginaw PS pump. While off I wire wheeled pulley groove. Replaced belt with brand new Gates. What am I missing????
                  The water pump seems good. No leaks or play. Crank is secured properly. I do have some lateral play in PS pump shaft but Rebuilt pump was worse so I swapped the original back in. Replacement rebuilt had fitment issues because it was a square body Saginaw. Hard to tell but may be some flexing in brackets and movement with revs. Any thoughts?
                   
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