Radiator tips for 67 Dart with 440

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mopar-racer

mopar-racer

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I've got a 67 Dart with a mildly built 440, aluminum heads. Constantly have had cooling problems ever since I bought it. Main issue is the clearance I have which is a snug 5".
Proform has been mentioned to me since they have the slim fit radiator assembly at only 4" including the fan and shroud, but don't want to drop that amount of money if it's not for sure gonna fix it. Thanks!
20220419_210122.jpg
 
You have some other reason you can't keep your engine cool.

Debris in the cooling system.
Wrong water pump
Wrong pulleys
Wrong timming
Over thinking the water temp. (Raising a few degrees at a stoplight is normal. If it keeps rising then your have a problem)

The factory did not have cooling issues, 340, 383, 440 - 22 inch wide copper brass rads

I know 2 guys with 383s in their 67 and 68 darts. No cooling issues.

One has an aluminum rad, the other has a copper brass.

How is it possible that a fixed blade fan and no shroud can keep this one cool? BUT it does!:rolleyes:
PXL_20220326_150328326.jpg

JUST MY 2 CENTS
 
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I would think that a shroud would be the first thing to try. When does it over heat? At idle? When cruising?
 
Murray said:
I would think that a shroud would be the first thing to try.
Click to expand...
OP's photo in post 1 looks to have a shroud.

My example photo in post 2 is my buddies dart, no shroud, fixed fan and no overheating issues.
 
I have a 430 hp 360, which I run at 207*F on purpose, with no problems.
I can tell you what is overkill, and it does NOT include a new rad, so long as water still runs thru yours.lol.
What is your definition of overheating?
Plus what does it do when it overheats?
and like @Murray asked, when and under what circumstances does it overheat?
What Idle timing are you running? with what cam-spec?
Do you have an Infra-Red heat gun?
 
AJ/FormS said:
I have a 430 hp 360, which I run at 207*F on purpose, with no problems.
I can tell you what is overkill, and it does NOT include a new rad, so long as water still runs thru yours.lol.
What is your definition of overheating?
Plus what does it do when it overheats?
and like @Murray asked, when and under what circumstances does it overheat?
What Idle timing are you running? with what cam-spec?
Do you have an Infra-Red heat gun?
Click to expand...
I've always been told, it ain't overheating, till it's boiling over.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I have a 430 hp 360, which I run at 207*F on purpose, with no problems.
I can tell you what is overkill, and it does NOT include a new rad, so long as water still runs thru yours.lol.
What is your definition of overheating?
Plus what does it do when it overheats?
and like @Murray asked, when and under what circumstances does it overheat?
What Idle timing are you running? with what cam-spec?
Do you have an Infra-Red heat gun?
Click to expand...
To put it lightly the temp will continue to go up regardless of driving or idling. Just obviously gets hotter faster when driving. It'll go past 220 no problem. When it's cold out it can tend to hold steady at 205 but once I stop it'll go up and stay there which results in parking and cooling off. Timing I'm unsure, one of those things I'll be checking as I pick this apart since it's on my list next. Cam I am unsure of. Bought this the way it is and haven't needed to tear into the engine.
 
mopar-racer said:
I've got a 67 Dart with a mildly built 440, aluminum heads. Constantly have had cooling problems ever since I bought it. Main issue is the clearance I have which is a snug 5".
Proform has been mentioned to me since they have the slim fit radiator assembly at only 4" including the fan and shroud, but don't want to drop that amount of money if it's not for sure gonna fix it. Thanks!View attachment 1715910919
Click to expand...


Brother here! :lol:I wouldn't call your 440 a completely mild 440. As it has been consistent 11.70-11.80s for you and the PO knocked off some low 11s? Yes, it is still pump gas but you have a pretty decent solid cam in there and id guess 10-1 CR at the minimum.

Knowing the car a little bit. This Rad setup does not allow room for a mechanical fan unfortunately. He has tried. It has two smaller (10"??) electric fans with unknown cfm rating. Unfortunately he may be stuck buying a new rad. Just to fit the proper fan/shroud setup under the hood.

From my minimal research Cold Case and ECP seem to be the rave lately? Any feedback for him?
 
4geardemon said:
From my minimal research Cold Case and ECP seem to be the rave lately
Click to expand...
Just because they are the latest "hot ticket" doesn't mean they are the correct part for the application.

If the temp goes up to 220 while driving 35 mph there is a problem with water flow, or air flow, etc.

The fan will only be of any use at idle or really slow speeds.
 
Dana67Dart said:
Just because they are the latest "hot ticket" doesn't mean they are the correct part for the application.

If the temp goes up to 220 while driving 35 mph there is a problem with water flow, or air flow, etc.

The fan will only be of any use at idle or really slow speeds.
Click to expand...

That is understandable. He is guaranteed to get hot in town driving and at a stand still. Highway he gets himself around somewhat ok. For example a 20 mile drive via highway with a couple stop signs. He sometimes has to stop and let it cool once or twice. Depending on the temps. Obviously a 90° is tough on most hot rods.
I have learned a radiator is kind of a to each their own topic. Some only like the old brass and some only want an aluminum. 2, 3, or 4 core is the next side of it. I haven’t had too many issues with my 22” Champion and mechanical fan with no shroud. Now that I have my low deck 512 in. It seems to run quite a bit warmer than the mild 440 did. Which makes me wonder if I need to get a shroud and/or a different radiator. The shroud will be the first change for me.

He does plan to pull the housing off to make sure it is plugged at all, I think he already has a “better” than factory water pump, and ofcourse who knows how good the radiator is truly flowing.




it’s just finding enough success stories to make him feel comfortable spending the money on one. Lol. Hopefully he can find that here.
 
4geardemon said:
. Highway he gets himself around somewhat ok. For example a 20 mile drive via highway with a couple stop signs
Click to expand...
4geardemon said:
Knowing the car a little bit. This Rad setup does not allow room for a mechanical fan unfortunately. He has tried. It has two smaller (10"??) electric fans with unknown cfm rating
Click to expand...

Sounds like something other than fan If it gets hot at cruising speed

If there is a shroud up against the rad and it only has 2 x 10" dia holes in it

Rad area
22x17 core = 374 sqin

Fan hole area
Pi x R^2 = Area
Dia / 2 = radius
10" dia / 2 = 5" radius
5^2=25

3.1415 x (25) = 78.54 sqin per hole

2 holes = 157 sq in.

That's a lot of blocked radiator it cruising speed.
 
Dana67Dart said:
That's a lot of blocked radiator it cruising speed.
Click to expand...
Nice math, I like it.

To me it seems that this combo has multiple problems.
here is a quick test;
Get the engine up to 190 and idling, in the driveway hood up is OK. Turn the fans on hi.
This is an Idle-test.
If the temp does not fall: check the temperature difference at the thermostat house, versus where the water exits the rad at the lower hose spigot, on the metal tank is fine. You are looking for about a 30 degree difference.
If you get that, (at ~190* coolant temp) or close to it, then you don't need a different rad.
If you don't get close to that, first cool the rad off by spraying a fine mist of of water on it, until the engine temp comes down; if you have a paper airfilter, you may need to protect it from the fan spray.

So now we are on the hunt.
Here are the possibilities in order of probability;
*Lack of sufficient air-flow thru the rad,
*Lack of sufficient coolant flow thru the rad,
*Lack of sufficient thru-put by the waterpump,
*missing thermostat,
*Retarded ignition timing,
* Combustion gasses leaking into the cooling system,
* tight ring gaps.

Now, we already have a very good clue!
You said, car still gets hot at over 35mph. Assuming that's in Third gear with an automatic;That's a dead ringer for one (or more) of;
* lack of sufficient airflow thru the rad, or
* a plugged A/C condenser, or
* a collapsing lower hose, or
* combustion gasses leaking into the cooling system, or
* a severely restricted exhaust,
* with a possibility of the ring gaps butting.
Happy Hunting.

I forget, did anyone mention; lack of airflow? lol.
 
Ok did some hunting through the files of receipts from the previous owner of my dart.
Gonna tag pics of the cam sheet and a screenshot of the radiator they purchased from summit.
20220423_080314.jpg
Screenshot_20220423-080020_Chrome.jpg


Also, took it out for a cruise yesterday. Was a decent 65° for both cruises with a fairly breezy wind out of the east. Heading west for 10 miles and then north for 15 miles going 55 mph @2800 rpms (with the occasional foot to the floor) it crept to 210 and started to 220 by the time I turned and headed east. (Was about to go into the city and didn't want to get stick in traffic and overheat.) As soon as I turned east and had the wind bucking me, the temp dropped straight to 200 and hovered between 190 and 200.
I'm assuming with everyone you all have hinted at and given tips on it would be that I just need better cooling fans?
I'm still going to pull off the water pump housing and make sure that's all good.
The fans that are on there now look to be of a custom build. Puller fan we had a shroud put on and it helped a little but still did its dance to 240°, and the pusher fan we don't even know. The mopar guru we go to up here said it looks like a fan out of a refrigerator
My main issue with new fans is the clearance I have from the radiator to the pulley bolts. It's a very snug just under 3".

Thank you for all the input. Hopefully this problem can soon be put behind me lol.


Here's a pic of the beauty after that cruise
20220422_105330.jpg
 
Go look at the pulleys. If the water pump pulley is bigger than the crank pulley fix that. The water pump should turn no slower than cranks speed. Overdriven is better.
 
Do you have an aftermarket water pump housing?
There are a couple cheap one's out there that have a restriction in the housing at the lower hose,
small opening, tight corner.
My 451 went from running 170-185 with the factory cast iron to 200-215 with the aluminum aftermarket. I figured it out quick after doing a little research.
 
Do you have exhaust gas in the radiator?
 
mopar-racer said:
As soon as I turned east and had the wind bucking me, the temp dropped straight to 200 and hovered between 190 and 200.
I'm assuming with everyone you all have hinted at and given tips on it would be that I just need better cooling fans?
Click to expand...
I think you nailed it.

On a 440HO, (I've never had a BB):
If it was mine
I would put a 7-blade all-steel, hi-attack angle, fan on it, with a HD thermostatic clutch; PLUS a Hi-flow water pump and stat; and making sure the lower hose has an anti-collapse spring in it; and either swap the rad to anything that fits or move it forward.
In that way, when the engine is running, so is the stinking fan; and I never have to go thru life worrying about the stinking electrical system again. If it cools OK parked and at idle, forget the shroud. If it doesn't, then first I would look at the idle-timing and Transfer-Slot exposure, and if that is reasonably close, THEN go hunt up a shroud.
That is what I would do. ......
What you do is up to you......
If your engine is mechanically sound and your TC is not trashed, I can almost guarantee you that your cooling system problems are a thing of the past.

As to pulley sizes; While a agree with RatB, I feel that this is one of the last things to look at; but only because I have a 367HO with a manual trans,(no trans-cooler) and unlike an automatic, the revs are always up. Furthermore, I often shift mine at 7000 or more, and so, She does not need to be overdriven.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I think you nailed it.

On a 440HO, (I've never had a BB):
If it was mine
I would put a 7-blade all-steel, hi-attack angle, fan on it, with a HD thermostatic clutch; PLUS a Hi-flow water pump and stat; and making sure the lower hose has an anti-collapse spring in it; and either swap the rad to anything that fits or move it forward.
In that way, when the engine is running, so is the stinking fan; and I never have to go thru life worrying about the stinking electrical system again. If it cools OK parked and at idle, forget the shroud. If it doesn't, then first I would look at the idle-timing and Transfer-Slot exposure, and if that is reasonably close, THEN go hunt up a shroud.
That is what I would do. ......
What you do is up to you......
If your engine is mechanically sound and your TC is not trashed, I can almost guarantee you that your cooling system problems are a thing of the past.

As to pulley sizes; While a agree with RatB, I feel that this is one of the last things to look at; but only because I have a 367HO with a manual trans,(no trans-cooler) and unlike an automatic, the revs are always up. Furthermore, I often shift mine at 7000 or more, and so, She does not need to be overdriven.
Click to expand...

Yup have had that type of bottom hose on it now for 5+ years, was an honest oops when I bought it, but soon realized after the benefit of it. As far as a different type of fan and moving the rad back. That's out. I have exactly 2 3/4" from the heads of the pulley bolts to the rad core. Radiator can only maybe gain an 1/8" if I fabricated the mounting brackets that are on there.
When I get to taking the housing off, I will look at what was mentioned above and see if it's aftermarket or the old style. Thermostat I was running is a 185 I believe. Didn't want to drop that kind of money on it, but would rather spend 800-1000$ on a better cooling setup than 6k+ for an engine rebuild lol
 
mopar-racer said:
but would rather spend 800-1000$ on a better cooling setup than 6k+ for an engine rebuild
Click to expand...
And that is how my system came to be.
But I did end up very near to the beginning, taking the engine out, to open up both the skirt clearance AND the ring gaps; after which it was smooth sailing. Of course while the engine was out and apart, I had the decks cut, lol. Not for more compression, but to throw the .028gasket away which couldn't take the pressure, and swapped in the .039 FellPros , But Ok...... I did pop the Hypers out of the holes about .007
 
That front sheetmetal is called the core support because that is what it is. The only thing that would stop me from moving the rad thru it is how to secure the hood.
But my rad is from a 73 to 75 Dart family car with a 318 and A/C. So it's the skinny two-row 47 yearold 26incher. There are patches on the patches. The opening in my core support is still the original 22" six-banger opening.
The point is that the 7-Blade fan is creating plenty enough airflow, that the rad does not need to be especially gargantuan.
 
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