Rally Dash Wiring Harness Questions

Discussion in 'Electrical and Ignition' started by LuckyJackson, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. LuckyJackson

    LuckyJackson Member

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    Greetings all. Newly taking advantage of those willing to share their superior knowledge. Brother has a 1971 Demon 340 4-speed. Original dash harness brittle and smoked. Removed and saved for comparison. Purchased a very nice 1972 Non-rally Dart dash harness and I have searched previous threads and learned quite a lot concerning adapting it to a Rally. (Thanks Redfish) I have a 1968 Barracuda Formula S, and used the downloaded 68 Plymouth dash wiring diagram as a guide since there are NO 1971 Demon/Dart rally dash wiring diagrams available on the web. Still have some important questions: (1) The Brake Warning Sender wire from position #6 on the round dash cluster (black)splits/to 2 wires with one going to the parking brake switch....the second goes to the Bulkhead Position M. **The 68 Plymouth manual has this second wire going to Bulkhead Position W*** Can someone confirm that the manual is wrong???

    IMG_3779.JPG
    IMG_3778.JPG
    (2) The illumination wire (orange) coming from the 3-prong connector....it seems that can be tied into any other orange wire such as the one coming from the dash cluster position #7....It doesn't have to come from any specific orange wire, correct??? IMG_3780.JPG
    (3) The dash cluster wire coming out of position #10, teethe temp and fuel feed, that gets tied into the thicker (10/12 gauge) Black(Ignition)-Pink(Signal Light Flasher)-Black(Fuse Box) line that is coming from Bulkhead position W??? Does it matter where in the line it goes??? Does it matter an 18 gauge wire gets connected to a 10/12 gauge??? IMG_3781.JPG
    I put a newer thicker wire in that position because I couldn't find a corresponding wire on the 1972 Non-rally harness. IMG_3774.JPG
    Appreciate the help, I think this is correct but do want to check with others. If anyone sees a problem, please let me know. Thanks.
     
  2. harrisonm

    harrisonm Well-Known Member

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    Rally dash cars came from the factory with a different harness than non rally cars for a reason. Buying a non rally harness was a fairly big mistake unless the two of you are pretty good at wiring. You may get a lot of good help from people on this forum, but you still have a lot of work ahead of you. Just make sure to solder all connections. If you leave a bunch of hacked splices, you may wind up with more smoking.
     
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    • 67Dart273

      67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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      The big problem is the cluster itself. If you can post a really good clear photo of the front and rear of the cluster........even if the rear is in two overlapping photos, you can use the cluster itself for your diagram for the cluster

      Then it is simply a matter of matching the old diagram to the cluster. Since you have the connector for the cluster, that is about half the battle.
       
    • 67Dart273

      67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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      (2) The illumination wire (orange) coming from the 3-prong connector....it seems that can be tied into any other orange wire such as the one coming from the dash cluster position #7....It doesn't have to come from any specific orange wire,

      Correct. Orange is pretty unique I believe
       
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      • 67Dart273

        67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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        (3) The dash cluster wire coming out of position #10, teethe temp and fuel feed, that gets tied into the thicker (10/12 gauge) Black(Ignition)-Pink(Signal Light Flasher)-Black(Fuse Box) line that is coming from Bulkhead position W??? Does it matter where in the line it goes??? Does it matter an 18 gauge wire gets connected to a 10/12 gauge???

        Going to have to look at that, I have to get to work soon
         
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        • RedFish

          RedFish Well-Known Member

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          I would look for at least a 1970 wiring diagram. For 1970 up, ignition switch moved, flasher switch moved, along with many other changes. The 68 model bulkhead wire positions will not be the same. Even 67 and 68 differ. anyway...
          Rallye inst' panel has 2 circuit boards with illumination bulbs in both, so the orange wire has to go to both. If you cut into a rallye dash harness you should find a weld splice where the orange wire coming to the standard/round terminal is weld splice branched to route to the other board connector.
          As for that brake lamp black wire, it goes to the brake warning switch on proportion valve. Whatever position is placed in outside bulkhead connector needs to match the inside bulkhead connector.
          Now about the 12 volt supplied to a voltage limiter. In pre 70 builds, blue w/white tracer from that ignition switch connector was 2 wires in one terminal. One of those went to the round panel connector to feed the limiter located inside that fuel gauge. Note that the limiters were not fuse protected.
          I honestly don't know where these ( standard or rally ) got 12 volts supply to the limiter for either limiter location. I think I have 1970 factory service manual here so I could have a look.
          Smaller wires as branches away from a larger wire, consider that the trunk line... 1 or more 18awg weld spliced to one 10awg was common.
          So a rally panel gets power to its limiter through the 10 o'clock position of the round connector. As long as its switched 12 volts it doesn't really matter if its tied to black or blue w/white after ignition switch with or without a inline fuse.
          I do think the later model diagram would answer most of these questions.
           
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          • RedFish

            RedFish Well-Known Member

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            I was wrong about one thing... mine is a 1971 factory chassis service manual. Covers Challenger, Dart, Charger, etc.. Sorry I have no means of scanning these pages. Ports 'M' and 'W' inside and outside the bulkhead get confusing where manual trans requires tying a reverse indicator lamp into this circuit. You might find 2 wires together on the inside and only 1 or none on the outside of 'W'. As best I can tell, the wire to you brake warning switch on proportion valve is in port 'M' outside. B1A and B2A are in 'W' and 'Z', relative to B1 and B2 of manual trans reverse lamp switch mounted on that transmission.
            Your inst' voltage regulator does get it 12 volts at switch on from a weld splice of 3 blacks and a pink. Every one is a different awg. Q2 black from ignition switch is 12awg. Black to fuse box is 14, pink to wiper switch is 16, black to inst' panel is 18.
             
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            • LuckyJackson

              LuckyJackson Member

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              Thank you Redfish and 67dart273 for your responses. I have tried to read as many of your older posts concerning wiring and value your knowledge. I will try to get better pics of cluster tomorrow. After rereading my original post I realized it is misleading.
              I used the 1968 barracuda wiring diagram for the 8 dash cluster positions only at the cluster end. It was the only rally dash diagram I could find and your earlier posts state that the circuit boards haven't changed. I checked the Demon board and it is the same as 68 Barracuda....so the 8 wires have to be in the same place for the same function. Once I determined function and color, I used a combination of the 1971/1972 non-rally wiring diagrams
              along with the burnt out old harness to verify the 8 wires went to the stated places. Most were easy and were the same as 1968 diagram (Dark blue at top of key goes to rear cluster as sender for fuel gauge)(Violet to Bulkhead R)(Gray to Bulkhead K)(Tan to Directional switch to Bulkhead V to directional switch)(Dark Blue w/tracer goes to Ignition to Bulkhead Box N)(Red to Bulkhead Y to High Beam Switch)(Light Green to Bulkhead S to Directional Switch)(Oranges tied together to Fuse Box).The last 3 make up the second dash cluster in rally dash. I saved the connector from the burnt 1971 harness as it was fine and moved it to 1972 harness.
              The brake warning sender wire from the circular dash cluster goes to the parking brake switch to the Bulkhead. In 1968 the diagram says Box W. In 1972 the diagram says Box M. Following it in the 1972 non rally dash it goes to box M. I shouldn't have said the 1968 wiring diagram had an error...I meant that there was a change over those years. Box M is correct b/c as you said Redfish the other side of Box M is Low Brake Warning Switch. Thanks.
              The position 10 wire that everyone refers to as the 12V power supply was not in the Non-rally dash. At least I couldn't find it. Sounds like I can put it into any power supply AFTER ignition. Correct? The dash should only get power after key is turned obviously. I see factory connections of smaller 18 gauge wire to larger 12 gauge in the harness....so I'm okay if I splice the 12V wire into larger gauge? Let me know what you find out Dart 273 if you look that up please, I'm not going to do it tomorrow.
              Can someone tell me if there is a dash voltage regulator in a 1971 Demon rally dash....and if so where it is. I'm pretty sure I have one in my 68 Barracuda but I haven't had to take dash apart yet thankfully. The 1972 Non-rally harness has these blue connectors: IMG_3775.jpg
              Are they the neutral safety back up switch? 1972 wiring diagram say they should be black. Only thing I can think that they are.
              Does 1971 Demon have a back up/reverse light that goes on in dash somewhere when you put it manual trans in reverse? I have a chrome/plastic light on my 68 that seems like they abolished by 1972. If so, I will have to add it to the harness somehow. Thats enough for now...Thanks again for help and letting me bounce dumb questions off you
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              All of the rally dashes have the IVR built into the fuel gauge. The fuel gauge on those has 3 terminals. One is switched ignition 12V INTO the IVR in the gauge. One terminal is the "normal" fuel sender, and the other is the output of the IVR which gets jumpered over to the temp/ oil gauge via the circuit traces
               
            • RedFish

              RedFish Well-Known Member

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              So the 71 Dart standard inst' panel had 2 inline connectors. That plug in type IVR was near the center of the panel, on the board with the gauges. It got its 12 volts from the same black wire as your rally limiter ( in the fuel gauge .) This black wire ( detailed earlier ) should have been in port 3/center of the 5 pin connector that had the gauge sender wires in it. It goes to 10 o'clock port of round connector of rally harness. If it is MIA, it had to be cut out of weld splice 2. If you must add it, may as well add it where it belongs.
              I haven't found that connector and bulb with all those blue wires yet. This 71 manual shows reverse lamp wires as black also.
               
            • LuckyJackson

              LuckyJackson Member

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              The non-rally dash harness I am adapting to rally is a 1972 Dart harness. It came with the round 12 position cluster as I think all 1972s did based on the 1972 wiring diagram from Mymopar. This cluster had the 9 wires in the non-rally positions, as opposed to the 8 wires in the rally dash. 2 of the 9 wires, Hi-Beam (Red) and Left Indicator Signal (Green) I removed from the cluster and put them in the 3-prong rally connector from the 1971 Rally harness. That left 7 wires in the 12 position non-rally cluster. I simply moved them to the correct rally dash positions based on their function. Even most of the colors were the same. My question is there is NO wire left to put in position #10. The 12v wire. The 1972 non-rally dash must get power somewhere? But it has NO 12v wire to move to the rally #10 position. I am thinking of 2 reasons for this.First---If you look at the 1972 non-rally wiring diagram for the Ammeter, the 12 gauge red (from Bulkhead Box J), and the 12 gauge black (from Bulkhead Box P) go directly to either side of the Ammeter. Wouldn't that power the whole rally cluster if they are all connected and are powered by position #10 in 1968? Maybe I don't need the 12v wire in position 10. The rally cluster would be powered without 12v wire in position #10. Second---They sent many more wires to the fuse box in 1972. The dark blue w/tracer coming out of Bulkhead position N is also 10 gauge in the 1972 harness and must have power b/c it originates from the line b/t the alternator and the ballast resister. I think that is how the non-rally 9 wire cluster is actually powered because the Ammeter in a 1972 non-rally is NOT connected to the 9 wire dash cluster. So I think the cluster will be powered by either/both of them. My question on that is can the rally cluster be powered by more than one wire source....Or is that a problem??? 2 12v power sources going into the cluster going to fry it? I only have a high school electronics education...but I can read a diagram. Tell me what you experienced guys think.
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              The only thing the large gauge black and or red go to is the ammeter. They do NOT power anything "in" the cluster directly, such as gauges or warning lamps. Any of that MUST come from "switched" either ignition "run" or "accessory". I have not had time, I've been working last few days....................

              Here is '72 valiant cluster. The wire at the very top (key) of the connector is the switched feed coming in for the warning lamps and gauges, it says "G5-20DBL"

              72cluster.jpg

              If you follow it over to the other page it junctions with J2B-12DBL which IS your ignition "run" feed from the ignition switch, and follow that BACK to the page you started from, it ends up at J2-12DBL right at the switch
               
              Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              Once again, the problem is the cluster itself. We need a diagram of the ralley cluster posted here, which I'm not sure I have access to
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              The 71 Dart book I have shows the limiter being fed by G1-18BK, and it junctions in the harness with EG the flasher (not necessarily PHYSICALLY at the flasher) and ends up Q2-12BK at the ignition, which is accessory

              The oil warning lamp which WOULD BE "ignition run" fed is fed by G5-18DBL, AND THAT IS WHAT I'D USE for gauges and anything else switched power to the cluster

              That wire junctions "somewhere" into the J2 circuit which IS YOUR ignition run buss. DBL (Dark BLue) is for many many years "the standard" for ignition power

              Again, with that you can feed the brake warning lamp, the IVR power for the gauges, and anything else in there that you want on/ off with the key
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              Hope this helps hell if I could be there, and not bragging, we'd have this ironed out by now. I just mean it's pretty easy, in reality Also be aware that for some years the diagrams are incorrect as to bulkhead connector cavity positions for at least the yellow start wire and the horn wire. I think they are correct for one have (interior side?) and wrong for the ?? engine side. But that is easy to figure
               
            • RedFish

              RedFish Well-Known Member

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              The standard panel shown above shows inst' regulator and brake warning and oil warning getting power from a single switched 12 volt circuit. 3 components on one switched 12 volt circuit. That is different from 71 standard and rally panels. I'm almost certain that if you checked back to early A body, most anything you would find inst' voltage regulator on 1 circuit and warning lamps on another. Warning lamps thru 71 model gets it power from a different circuit ( turn signal? radio? I forget ), A fused circuit.
              Inst' voltage regulator was not on a fused circuit. It's only protection was fusible link before ignition switch. Note that a oil waning lamp does operate on 12 volts. Oil gauge does not.
              In a rally inst' panel, one 12 volt switched wire at 10 o'clock position ( circuit boards never changed ) of round connector feeds nothing more than the inst' voltage regulator. And it was tied to black or blue with white tracer after ignition switch. It's single warning lamp was on a fused circuit.
              If my memory serves, that warning lamp is routed to ports 5 and 6 of the round connector. I will look again this afternoon for where this 12 volts originates.
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              ^^You may be right and I nearly mentioned might be handy to run an additional fuse

              So far as "sources" tho, there are only two sources, ultimately. That is the key "accessory" or the key "ignition run." For me, I don't want ANY of the dash components on "accessory," no need.
               
            • RedFish

              RedFish Well-Known Member

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              Actually I was wrong for the 71 model at least. I would have bet that the indicator lamps were on a fused circuit. Maybe they are in earlier models. dunno. And I had though the rally panels park lamp was routed to ports 5 and 6 . Its actually ports 4 and 6. P4-20DBL was brought from a weld splice to port 4 of the round connector to feed this indicator lamp. That is the DBL from ignition switch which also goes to port 'N' of bulkhead.
              A black wire from port 6 goes to the hand brake switch and to port 'M' of bulkhead connector leading to the low brake switch.
              So the unanswered question is why they brought 2 separate 12 volt switched wires to these earlier panels? Seems they did figer out how to operate 3 components with one source ( per that 72 model drawing above ).
              I suppose if this owner wants he could just jumper the DBL switched wire he has evidently already defined and placed at port 4 over to port 10 to feed the inst' voltage regulator but...
              P4-20DBL might not carry the load. The regulator supply is supposed to be G1-18BK. Notice the root source G2-12BK from ignition switch also exceeds J2-16DBL from ignition switch? That's a clue.
              I wouldn't pretend to be smarter than their engineers. I would add the G1 from the G2 source just as they did.
              Keep in mind that the limiter in a rally panel does operate three of 20 ohm instruments while standard plug in type regulators operate only two instrumnets. In later models that's one 20 ohm and one 13 ohm. They changed the fuel gauge to 13 ohm at about 72 model. Another clue.
               
              Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
            • RedFish

              RedFish Well-Known Member

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              About that 3 wire connector and lamp with blue wires. I never did find that in these 71 model diagrams. 72 model diagrams might identify that as seat belt warning or other. I know the 73 model had a added seat belt lamp poked into the inst' panel separate from the printed board. I have the 73 model diagrams on a cd here somewhere but that might add more confusion.
              I got to thinking about how their engineers repeatedly added onto the blue run wire in the engine bay. Maybe the 20awg DBL you have in this 72 harness can run the mechanical limiter in the rally panel. I would be replacing the mechanical limiter with a solid state regulator and converting the amp gauge to a volts gauge anyway. My mentioning that stuff probably just further complicates things for you. Soooo, get it sorted and working first. Modify as required later on. Good luck with it
               
            • LuckyJackson

              LuckyJackson Member

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              Thanks for your research. I'm going to try pics this week. Dart273 provided valuable info on Ammeter. I looked and it is NOT connected to other gauges. When you use the term "limiter", are you talking about Instrument VR in the gas gauge? I also think we are working off 3 different wiring diagrams. I found a 1971 Valiant Rally dash diagram on Mymopar. Position #4 on rally cluster (Dual Brake system feed) goes to a junction. DBL with tracer out of Bulkhead N splits to 1) Rally cluster #4, and 2) 3rd wire on Ignition cluster (J2-16DBL). That I have checked and is correct with what I did...but I will double check this week. Position #10 off rally cluster in 1971 Valiant wiring goes to a junction...Accessory feed out of Fuse box to 1)Rally position #10, 2) Q2-18Bk to Ignition (Accessory), and 3)V1-16P to Wipers. Will look at that on the 1972 this week. Another dumb question....Is there supposed to be a usable link on that DBLw/tracer line out of Bulkhead N? I don't see one on any of the diagrams other that the one in the engine compartment. Redfish, I don't see the feed (G1-18BK) connecting with any J line in the Valiant. Maybe dart/Demon different? Again ...too many diagrams.
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              Post a link? Very important to get "us" all on the same page. Yes, the limiter/ regulator/ IVR is inside the fuel gauge. It is the same function as the external one which plugs into the non ralley dashes.

              I'll say this again.........a VERY helpful deal would be if you could post a CLEAR photo of the rear of your cluster. If necessary, shoot two and put them separate. If you cannot edit them, PM me and you can email them and I'll crop them down.
               
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              • RedFish

                RedFish Well-Known Member

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                No sir, Only the one wire at port 'N' on any. I stated before that pre 1970 rally harness had 2 wires in one ignition switch terminal. One went to port 'N' other went to port 10 of round connector.
                To adapt this 72 harness to a rally panel you will can add a G1 wire to Q2-18BK ( like the 70/71 standard and rally harnesses had ) to port 10...
                or jumper the J2-16DBL from port 4 to port 10 like the 72 standard harness ( that jumper happened on that 72 and up standard printed circuit board ).
                You wont find a G1 wire tying to J on any factory diagram. G1 wire came from Q2.
                The 72 and up harness used the J line alone and deleted the G1 wire.
                If either manner of supplying switched 12 volts to these 2 inst' [panel components worked for them, it should work for you too. The little park lamp bulb is rarely on and uses very little power when it is. Simply jumper port 4 to port 10 right behind the round connector and call it done.
                Forget the solid state regulator until you find you need one.
                 
              • LuckyJackson

                LuckyJackson Member

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                Redfish, are you saying that my DBL w/tracer from Bulkhead N going to rally dash #4 AND ignition cluster is incorrect? That is from 1971 Valiant wiring diagram for rally dash. Could Dart/Demon rally dash be different for the same year? I cannot find Dart/Demon 1971 rally dash wiring diagram, so I ordered one from classic Industries. My problem wires are dash cluster positions #4 and #10. I don't have access to car daily so it takes awhile to respond. I will get pics this week. I have rally dash position #10 temporarily attached to G/Q circuit through the fuse box, since that power wire continues through fuse box and powers heater blower with BLK w/tracer. I did this b/c I didn't want to splice the G line. Is there supposed to be a useable link inside car on any of these power feed circuits? Thanks
                 
              • LuckyJackson

                LuckyJackson Member

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                Fuseable link, I mean
                 
              • 67Dart273

                67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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                This is one reason I as' for photos. With good front/ rear shots of the cluster you can use the PC board itself for identifying connections. "There ain't" all that many, here off the top of my head in no order:

                GROUND........this is done by the cluster mounting and should be changed. Use a pigtail bolted / soldered to a cluster ground point and bolt it to the dash/ column support

                1....High beam indicator
                2....dimmer controlled lighting for the cluster
                3.....left turn indicator
                4.....right turn indicator
                5, 6....ammeter connections
                7.....fuel sender
                8.....oil sender
                9.....temp sender
                10....switch power for the IVR
                11....Does it have a brake warning lamp? That may plug in with dedicated wires, or it may have two more connections, switched power and the sender wire

                These are from memory, let's see what I forgot.............

                Don't overthink.........as I (think) I said earlier, ultimately, there are only two switched sources "at the headwaters." This is "ignition run" (ign1) and accessory. Everything else that is switched splits off from those two either directly or through the fuse panel