Rear Main Seal

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by superchargeddrt, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. superchargeddrt

    superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,842
    Likes Received:
    470
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pa.
    Local Time:
    5:26 PM
    Okay,
    So I pulled the engine back out of the Dart after checking with dye to determine what was leaking. It looked like the oil was leaking from the oil pan gasket in the rear but after changing the gasket and reinstalling the engine I still have a leak! I can't get the oil pan off while it's in the car because the oil pan pickup is not allowing the pan to move forward. My question is is it feasible to loosen the K member while supporting the engine from the top with a hoist to gain the extra space I need? The oil pan is one of the 8 quart Milodons that bell out on the bottom. If any of you have a trick for removing the pan while in the car I'm all ears. This is the most frustrating experience of my life and I'm ready to drop the tools and wait until next year. Thanks for your help.
     
  2. MOPAROFFICIAL

    MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,356
    Likes Received:
    1350
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    Location:
    breakwater
    Local Time:
    2:26 PM
    I have the same pan, but with the front corner mod and would like to know as well. Gonna attempt this soon or not .
     
  3. superchargeddrt

    superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,842
    Likes Received:
    470
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pa.
    Local Time:
    5:26 PM
    Probably next weekend. I will keep you all informed.
     
  4. inertia

    inertia Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    353
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Location:
    Victoria B.C. Canada
    View My Photos
    Local Time:
    2:26 PM
    Can you reach thru the gap, undo the pump, let it drop in the pan. ?

    Seems to me I went thru a similar thing, decades ago.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • robert flippo

      robert flippo Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      98
      Likes Received:
      36
      Joined:
      May 9, 2018
      Location:
      gibson station va
      Local Time:
      5:26 PM
      with large oil pan may take motor mounts loose and raise the motor enough
       
      Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
    • superchargeddrt

      superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

      Messages:
      1,842
      Likes Received:
      470
      Joined:
      Aug 24, 2009
      Location:
      Pittsburgh, Pa.
      Local Time:
      5:26 PM
      Q
      Good idea! I think we might try that. Thanks!
       
    • pishta

      pishta I know I'm right....

      Messages:
      12,939
      Likes Received:
      2821
      Joined:
      Oct 13, 2004
      Location:
      Tustin, CA
      View My Photos
      Local Time:
      2:26 PM
      even the stock 65 pan takes the right crank clocking to get the pan off with the motor in the car. Have you tried turning the crank or is it obvious that the pickup and pan shape prevents an easy slide out? Trouble with the engine hoist is that your back under the car with the motor slung and that is dangerous. Pick the motor up and wedge a 2X4 block under the motor mount for some physical support. Watch the distributor and the fan when you pick the motor up.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • superchargeddrt

        superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

        Messages:
        1,842
        Likes Received:
        470
        Joined:
        Aug 24, 2009
        Location:
        Pittsburgh, Pa.
        Local Time:
        5:26 PM
        I forgot that I have a windage tray and I can't get to the oil pump bolts ARRRRRRGH
         
      • sireland67

        sireland67 Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        7,370
        Likes Received:
        1309
        Joined:
        Oct 27, 2010
        Location:
        WV
        Local Time:
        5:26 PM
        Just pull the motor.
        I bet you could have already had the engine out with as much time you have spent trying to take a short cut.
         
        • Agree Agree x 4
        • diymirage

          diymirage HP@idle > hondaHP@redline FABO Gold Member

          Messages:
          13,654
          Likes Received:
          5869
          Joined:
          Oct 12, 2012
          Location:
          michigan
          Local Time:
          5:26 PM
          Ever since you took that blower of its been nothing but problems, hasn't it?
           
        • superchargeddrt

          superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

          Messages:
          1,842
          Likes Received:
          470
          Joined:
          Aug 24, 2009
          Location:
          Pittsburgh, Pa.
          Local Time:
          5:26 PM
          Hate to say it but it sure seems that way.
           
        • diymirage

          diymirage HP@idle > hondaHP@redline FABO Gold Member

          Messages:
          13,654
          Likes Received:
          5869
          Joined:
          Oct 12, 2012
          Location:
          michigan
          Local Time:
          5:26 PM
          Kinda reminds me of my bronco...nothing but problems
           
        • Wyrmrider

          Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          839
          Likes Received:
          255
          Joined:
          Sep 5, 2016
          Location:
          los angeles
          Local Time:
          2:26 PM
          here's the last picture of the rear main seal b 4 it was eaten by a great white
          upload_2018-8-6_18-4-46.jpeg
           
          • Like Like x 5
          • superchargeddrt

            superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

            Messages:
            1,842
            Likes Received:
            470
            Joined:
            Aug 24, 2009
            Location:
            Pittsburgh, Pa.
            Local Time:
            5:26 PM
            Yeah I agree but I'm having trouble getting up the ambition to pull it out after just putting it back in a week ago.
             
          • sireland67

            sireland67 Well-Known Member

            Messages:
            7,370
            Likes Received:
            1309
            Joined:
            Oct 27, 2010
            Location:
            WV
            Local Time:
            5:26 PM
            At least the bolts will come out easy.
             
            • Like Like x 1
            • yellow rose

              yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

              Messages:
              15,415
              Likes Received:
              11996
              Joined:
              Jun 19, 2015
              Location:
              Living on the razors edge
              Local Time:
              2:26 PM
              Yep, you're stuck. I couldn't get a stock pan off in the car and I fought it like jack the bear (I was substantially younger back then) until I had enough and just pulled the engine.

              It's hard to get motivated to do the work over but it's actually quicker and easier to yank the pig out and fix it.


              BTW, when you check the rear main seal, look very close at how far the seal is proud from the cap and block.

              You really only need .010-.015 crush on the seal and that's plenty. I never clock the seal with the ends below the cap and block.

              If your block was line honed it makes the seal stick too far out of the block and cap. When you bolt them together with too much crush, it will force the seal out of round. And it will leak.

              The only fix I know is to very carefully sand a little off both ends of each seal until you have the correct amount of seal sticking past the cap and block.

              Practice up on the old seal before you work on the new seal. I just use a little belt sander. Keep the ends as square as you can.

              That's my best .02 cents to try and help you. You'd be surprised how many guys don't check that and end up with oil leaks at the seal.

              That and putting either the whole seal in backwards. Or just on half of it.

              Don't ask how I know that. Just know that I know it.
               
              • Like Like x 4
              • AJ/FormS

                AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

                Messages:
                14,167
                Likes Received:
                3588
                Joined:
                Jan 19, 2014
                Location:
                South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
                View My Photos
                Local Time:
                4:26 PM
                Hyup, I got caught on that line-hone thing. The shop basically Junked my block. After replacing the seal once and having it leak again before the end of the summer, I went back and looked at the first seal, and don't you know it, the evidence was right there. But it was so bad I went back to the machine shop, and showed them. With a straight face the guy behind the counter said "Bring us another block and we'll fix it; no charge." What about the decking and boring and squaring? "Well, no; we didn't do any of that machining".
                And they never will see me again.

                Ok long story short, I got a rope seal from a 383 and stuffed it in there with a little trimming. It's not happy about the knurling back there, but it's tolerable.
                 
                • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                • Wyrmrider

                  Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  839
                  Likes Received:
                  255
                  Joined:
                  Sep 5, 2016
                  Location:
                  los angeles
                  Local Time:
                  2:26 PM
                  good advice YR
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  15,415
                  Likes Received:
                  11996
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  2:26 PM


                  If you do a rope seal correctly, they actually work well.
                   
                  • Agree Agree x 1
                  • superchargeddrt

                    superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

                    Messages:
                    1,842
                    Likes Received:
                    470
                    Joined:
                    Aug 24, 2009
                    Location:
                    Pittsburgh, Pa.
                    Local Time:
                    5:26 PM
                    Thanks for all of your advice guys. I guess we are pulling the engine a second time. This is what I get for not changing that seal as a matter of course. I am gonna give it one more try this year and if it still leaks it's gonna wait until next season. Thanks Again!
                     
                    • Like Like x 1
                    • AJ/FormS

                      AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

                      Messages:
                      14,167
                      Likes Received:
                      3588
                      Joined:
                      Jan 19, 2014
                      Location:
                      South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
                      View My Photos
                      Local Time:
                      4:26 PM
                      Ok truth? It took me a couple of tries,lol,
                      But in those days I was taking the 367 out every September long, and swapping in my 318 test mule engine for the winter. So then I would take the 367 apart over the winter looking for issues before they spoiled my next summer. The engine usually went back in on May-long. Most of the gaskets were the re-useable type, so this wasn't costing much more than time.
                      The first rope seal was a disaster; it did not survive the install. The second didn't pass the pressure test. The third time was a charm. Fourth and fifth,also good. Now it's been in there since 2004/5.
                       
                    • AJ/FormS

                      AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

                      Messages:
                      14,167
                      Likes Received:
                      3588
                      Joined:
                      Jan 19, 2014
                      Location:
                      South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
                      View My Photos
                      Local Time:
                      4:26 PM
                      Rig up a pressure test while the engine is still on the stand. I use 3 to 4psi NO-MORE, else it will want to blow something out. Please Lord don't let it be the rear cam plug.
                      4 psi doesn't sound like much, but on a 2 inch round plug that is 12.5 pounds of force. Can your cam-plug take it? Let's find out, shall we,lol.
                      Your engine normally is ventilated so should never generate 3 to 4 psi pressure. At least not in it's early years,lol. But pressures that low are really hard to regulate. I shoot for 3 and panic at 4.Once the pressure stabilizes, I hit it with the soapy water trick.
                      May the force be on your side.
                       
                    • jdsduster

                      jdsduster Well-Known Member

                      Messages:
                      1,064
                      Likes Received:
                      104
                      Joined:
                      Aug 5, 2011
                      Location:
                      indiana
                      Local Time:
                      5:26 PM

                      this has got to be very frustrating,i feel your aggravation .
                       
                    • nm9stheham

                      nm9stheham Well-Known Member

                      Messages:
                      9,040
                      Likes Received:
                      1739
                      Joined:
                      Dec 20, 2013
                      Location:
                      Waynesboro, VA
                      Local Time:
                      5:26 PM
                      The IF is the issue... I am about 50-50 with rope seals ... I guess that is better than 0-100, but I suspect a child could do better LOL

                      The only rear seals I have had 100% success with are the full circular seals in some other engines.
                       
                    • yellow rose

                      yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                      Messages:
                      15,415
                      Likes Received:
                      11996
                      Joined:
                      Jun 19, 2015
                      Location:
                      Living on the razors edge
                      Local Time:
                      2:26 PM

                      That's because the full circular (one piece) seals aren't affected by line honing.

                      50/50 isn't bad. I know guys who are O'fer on them and won't even look at them.