rear sway bar recommendations

[72bluNblu]

take this for what it is worth. A leaf spring car does not have a rear sway bar. It is a stabilizer bar. Like the front it transfers weight from one side to the other and stabilizes the car to keep it level. Sway bars are usually seen on a coil spring car with control arms and are connected to the sides of the lower control arms to prevent the rear from moving side to side and also weight transfer. I had sway bars on my Chevelles and GTO's I had stabilizers on mopars.

Rear stabilizers on mopars were not that helpful as were the fronts. Good for cars with a lot of rear cargo weight and weak springs. I tried them and the seamed to give the car more understeer or push entering turns at high speeds. They do look cool . I would recommend good bushings that would stop spring roll. In the past we replaced all the bushings with aluminum and kept them lubed but they were noisy and didn't last long.

Been there with the stabilizer and it looked cool but didn't keep it long when I decided bigger was better

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Yeah, I’ll take it for what it’s worth, nothing. Literally wrong on ALL accounts. Basic suspension concepts and you don’t comprehend them.

Sway bars add roll stiffness. You don’t add a rear sway bar and increase understeer, literally the opposite. If you got understeer from increasing rear roll stiffness your suspension is a soup sandwich. Or your driving skill is.

Rear sway bars are an integral part of a well handling Mopar. Not understanding how to use or tune them doesn’t change that.

340 stock torsion bars and a factory front sway bar I removed from a 73 and installed on my 72 when converting to disk brakes , running 15 inch tires P255 60R on rear P215 65R on front

Do you know the rear spring rate? Are the ESPO’s the XHD version? That’s usually a 110 lb/in spring.

With the tire stagger you can certainly induce more rear roll rate than a factory car, but with a stock sized front sway bar you do want to be careful not to overdo the rear bar compared to the front.

The Hellwig bar is quite a bit larger in diameter than a factory bar, you may want to look into running Hellwig bars front and rear especially with the factory torsion bars. You can still use a lot more rate up front.

I will add , I have not driven the car just yet , its the car I am building and its ready to drive but haven't painted just yet , and I like rear bar on my ebody and was debating on whether to add on my present Duster before hitting the road , its going to mainly a driver but I want it driving properly as I am in rural area , lots of winding roads in areas as well , and who doesn't like to pass slow Ford or Chevy from time to time , Hellwig does look like the better bar although Firm Feel might be an option , so to Bar or not to Bar , that is the question

I’d run Hellwig on both ends.

From lots and lots of reading, it seems if you run heavy sway bars or stabilizer bars, you don't need heavy torsion bars, as they somewhat emulate sway bars in a way and heavy torsion bars coupled with heavy sway bars usually isn't a good idea. At least that's what I understand.

It’s a balance, and there are some really well respected drivers and car builders that disagree as far as how much wheel and roll rate you want to control with the sway bars vs the springs.

Obviously the torsion bars or leaf springs set the wheel rate all the time. The sway bar will only add wheel rate for lateral load transfer, they should be mostly out of the system if both wheels are acting together.

So there’s definitely a school of thought that you want to run really heavy sway bars to control your lateral transfer while keeping your primary springs softer so that the ride quality isn’t as affected. Realistically, it’s all a balance. IMO the sway bars are more for fine tuning, it’s easier to adjust them than change out the main springs.

 

[junkyardhero]

I am not Ma Mopar

on that we can agree

When you look up either they both come up with the same replacement parts.

what does this even mean? some added context would be nice.

To me a sway bar stops the sway of back and forth of side to side movement of the body to suspension. A stabilizer bar transfer the load from one side to the other. Push one side down and the other is pulled down by the stabilizer bar end links. Stabilizing body roll. not body sway. I call them by what they do.

oh, so you're just free to go against the generally accepted nomenclature when you want to be pedantic about it, and then you get all butt hurt when somebody points out the short fall? can't have it both ways pal.

since you're such an expert in the subject matter, where do "anti-roll bars" fit in here?

Coil spring cars have rear sway bars. The have no end links, They attach firmly to the side of the control arms and stop side movement of the angled arms and roll. Mopars have end links that do not stop side movement of the rear at all only body roll.

really, that's news to me. i'd love to see a picture of this. every roll bar, stabilizer bar, anti-roll bar, sway bar that i've ever installed had end links of some type or fashion. and i've installed a bunch on chevy's and fords.

You always have to find something to start an issue . Why don't you just explain the definition from the dictionary in the difference of the words used as you did in the past. I don't care what mopar calls them only their purpose. Look up either and you get the same parts.

you need to lighten up francis. you came on here making a bold claim and i merely pointed out that mopar, does in fact, call them sway bars. it's right there in the FSM!!

i'm sorry if proper definitions and words with more than two syllables are difficult for you. would you like a cookie?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yeah, I’ll take it for what it’s worth, nothing. Literally wrong on ALL accounts. Basic suspension concepts and you don’t comprehend them.

Sway bars add roll stiffness. You don’t add a rear sway bar and increase understeer, literally the opposite. If you got understeer from increasing rear roll stiffness your suspension is a soup sandwich. Or your driving skill is.

Rear sway bars are an integral part of a well handling Mopar. Not understanding how to use or tune them doesn’t change that.



Do you know the rear spring rate? Are the ESPO’s the XHD version? That’s usually a 110 lb/in spring.

With the tire stagger you can certainly induce more rear roll rate than a factory car, but with a stock sized front sway bar you do want to be careful not to overdo the rear bar compared to the front.

The Hellwig bar is quite a bit larger in diameter than a factory bar, you may want to look into running Hellwig bars front and rear especially with the factory torsion bars. You can still use a lot more rate up front.



I’d run Hellwig on both ends.


It’s a balance, and there are some really well respected drivers and car builders that disagree as far as how much wheel and roll rate you want to control with the sway bars vs the springs.

Obviously the torsion bars or leaf springs set the wheel rate all the time. The sway bar will only add wheel rate for lateral load transfer, they should be mostly out of the system if both wheels are acting together.

So there’s definitely a school of thought that you want to run really heavy sway bars to control your lateral transfer while keeping your primary springs softer so that the ride quality isn’t as affected. Realistically, it’s all a balance. IMO the sway bars are more for fine tuning, it’s easier to adjust them than change out the main springs.

Which would you say is more important? More sway bar or more torsion bar and springs? As usual, I suspect it depends on what you're doing.

 

[RustyRatRod]

really, that's news to me. i'd love to see a picture of this. every roll bar, stabilizer bar, anti-roll bar, sway bar that i've ever installed had end links of some type or fashion. and i've installed a bunch on chevy's and fords.

As requested. ALL factory 67-72 GM A bodies, (Chevelle, etc), and maybe later attach the sway bar ends by BOLTING to the lower control arms with no end links. Thusly.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Yeah, I’ll take it for what it’s worth, nothing. Literally wrong on ALL accounts. Basic suspension concepts and you don’t comprehend them.

Sway bars add roll stiffness. You don’t add a rear sway bar and increase understeer, literally the opposite. If you got understeer from increasing rear roll stiffness your suspension is a soup sandwich. Or your driving skill is.

Rear sway bars are an integral part of a well handling Mopar. Not understanding how to use or tune them doesn’t change that.



Do you know the rear spring rate? Are the ESPO’s the XHD version? That’s usually a 110 lb/in spring.

With the tire stagger you can certainly induce more rear roll rate than a factory car, but with a stock sized front sway bar you do want to be careful not to overdo the rear bar compared to the front.

The Hellwig bar is quite a bit larger in diameter than a factory bar, you may want to look into running Hellwig bars front and rear especially with the factory torsion bars. You can still use a lot more rate up front.



I’d run Hellwig on both ends.


It’s a balance, and there are some really well respected drivers and car builders that disagree as far as how much wheel and roll rate you want to control with the sway bars vs the springs.

Obviously the torsion bars or leaf springs set the wheel rate all the time. The sway bar will only add wheel rate for lateral load transfer, they should be mostly out of the system if both wheels are acting together.

So there’s definitely a school of thought that you want to run really heavy sway bars to control your lateral transfer while keeping your primary springs softer so that the ride quality isn’t as affected. Realistically, it’s all a balance. IMO the sway bars are more for fine tuning, it’s easier to adjust them than change out the main springs.

Set up and raced sprint cars and many other classes for years. If it don't transfer weight it don't turn. To stiff it goes straight . When or where did you ever race and set up a car to turn . No where but the street I presume.

A good friend of mine Tony Hirschman owns and builds Troyer modified nascars . His son Tony is Kyle Bush's Spotter . His son my sons friend.Matt Hirschman is now a three time Champion. Their advise is far from yours. But you read the book. You really do believe yourself.

I believe all your technical advice is from a book. Mine is from hands on from Pennsylvania to Texas and as far south as North Carolina with help from the Hirschman's. You don't have a clue what I know but you keep assuming you do.

I never saw anything you have accomplished except your hand full of cars. That is your only accomplishments and experience , except from what you claim .

PLEASE STOP QUOTING ME AND EVERYONE ELSE WITH YOUR UNJUSTIFIED REMARKS. YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK FOOLISH PUTTING OTHERS DOWN TO LIFT YOURSELF UP. I don't bother you why do you have to bother me eccept for your obsession and jealousy? Get a life . Stop trolling me and others.

 

[junkyardhero]

As requested. ALL factory 67-72 GM A bodies, (Chevelle, etc), and maybe later attach the sway bar ends by BOLTING to the lower control arms with no end links. Thusly.

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ah. i've never dealt with that, only stock low rent **** that didn't have bars to begin with or stuff that was already modded. TIL.

also, leave it up to GM to make up the worst possible design of both worlds.

 

[RustyRatRod]

ah. i've never dealt with that, only stock low rent **** that didn't have bars to begin with or stuff that was already modded. TIL.

also, leave it up to GM to make up the worst possible design of both worlds.

Totally stock. That's how they mounted. Also, the bars did not mount to the rear axle. They worked just fine.

 

[72dustervs]

Do you know the rear spring rate? Are the ESPO’s the XHD version? That’s usually a 110 lb/in spring.

With the tire stagger you can certainly induce more rear roll rate than a factory car, but with a stock sized front sway bar you do want to be careful not to overdo the rear bar compared to the front.

The Hellwig bar is quite a bit larger in diameter than a factory bar, you may want to look into running Hellwig bars front and rear especially with the factory torsion bars. You can still use a lot more rate up front.

Yes the XHD , And yes if I go the route of Hellwig bars front an rear ,

 

[junkyardhero]

Which would you say is more important? More sway bar or more torsion bar and springs? As usual, I suspect it depends on what you're doing.

depends on what you're doing

there's two schools of thought: big springs, light bars or light springs and big bars

the idea is that you're *generally* using the bar as a tuning aid because it's more easier, inexpensive and less time consuming that changing springs.

in the end, it's all a system and the system has to work together. so having big *** t-bars in the front and light /6 springs in the back makes for an ill handling package because they're not complimenting each other.

a lot of factors go into it that are frequently overlooked: shocks and tires play a very important role as well.

 

[RustyRatRod]

depends on what you're doing

there's two schools of thought: big springs, light bars or light springs and big bars

the idea is that you're *generally* using the bar as a tuning aid because it's more easier, inexpensive and less time consuming that changing springs.

in the end, it's all a system and the system has to work together. so having big *** t-bars in the front and light /6 springs in the back makes for an ill handling package because they're not complimenting each other.

a lot of factors go into it that are frequently overlooked: shocks and tires play a very important role as well.

Yeah I knew shocks were a part of it too. Fact is, I drive like the old man I am and it probably will never matter. lol

 

[junkyardhero]

Yeah I knew shocks were a part of it too. Fact is, I drive like the old man I am and it probably will never matter. lol

eh, that ol pig of a /6 don't make enough power for it to matter anyway

*ducks*

all kidding aside slow car fast > fast car slow every time.

 

[72bluNblu]

Which would you say is more important? More sway bar or more torsion bar and springs? As usual, I suspect it depends on what you're doing.

The torsion bar and springs are more important, they have to at least be in the ballpark for wheel rate with the tire size/compound being used.

The sway bars are of course important, but they’re basically only handling lateral transfer, so you still need the torsion bars and springs close to handle acceleration and especially braking, too much dive will really screw up your weight transfer as well.

It’s not that clear cut in the real world, obviously on the road or on the track suspension forces are rarely all in a single direction. You’re accelerating or braking while still having lateral motion and trying to keep it all hooked up at the same time. So yeah, it all has to work together.

Set up and raced sprint cars and many other classes for years. If it don't transfer weight it don't turn. To stiff it goes straight . When or where did you ever race and set up a car to turn . No where but the street I presume.

A good friend of mine Tony Hirschman owns and builds Troyer modified nascars . His son Tony is Kyle Bush's Spotter . His son my sons friend.Matt Hirschman is now a three time Champion. Their advise is far from yours. But you read the book. You really do believe yourself.

I believe all your technical advice is from a book. Mine is from hands on from Pennsylvania to Texas and as far south as North Carolina with help from the Hirschman's. You don't have a clue what I know but you keep assuming you do.

I never saw anything you have accomplished except your hand full of cars. That is your only accomplishments and experience , except from what you claim .

PLEASE STOP QUOTING ME AND EVERYONE ELSE WITH YOUR UNJUSTIFIED REMARKS. YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK FOOLISH PUTTING OTHERS DOWN TO LIFT YOURSELF UP. I don't bother you why do you have to bother me accept for your obsession and jealousy? Get a life . Stop trolling me and others.



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So with that kind of experience, why are you giving such terrible advice for a basic street car?

I’ll quote and reply to whomever I like. I don’t care about your previous experience if you’re giving lousy set up advice, which you are.

The OP’s car set up is pretty basic, and adding Hellwig bars front and rear will absolutely improve his handling on the street which is what he’s trying to do. It’s basic stuff, I’ve done it, it will help. How you get that so wrong with the experience you claim to I have no idea.

Yes the XHD , And yes if I go the route of Hellwig bars front an rear ,

Ok. So you’re at 110 lb/in in the rear and 120 lb/in in the front.

But you’ve also got the sway bar up front and a significant tire stagger, plus radials vs the bias ply’s the suspension was initially set up for.

I’d still run more torsion bar up front, even with 200 lb/in bars (1”) and 225’s on all for corners I had a significant amount of body roll.

I wouldn’t add just the rear Hellwig, you’d still benefit from the larger bar up front as well and you don’t want to have more rate in the back than in the front. So either go Hellwig up front and in the back, or source a factory sized rear bar to go with the factory front. And yeah, for a street car I’d still consider going up to something like 1” or 1.03” bars if back roads and handling are something you want to do.

 

[72dustervs]

Ok. So you’re at 110 lb/in in the rear and 120 lb/in in the front.

But you’ve also got the sway bar up front and a significant tire stagger, plus radials vs the bias ply’s the suspension was initially set up for.

I’d still run more torsion bar up front, even with 200 lb/in bars (1”) and 225’s on all for corners I had a significant amount of body roll.

I wouldn’t add just the rear Hellwig, you’d still benefit from the larger bar up front as well and you don’t want to have more rate in the back than in the front. So either go Hellwig up front and in the back, or source a factory sized rear bar to go with the factory front. And yeah, for a street car I’d still consider going up to something like 1” or 1.03” bars if back roads and handling are something you want to do.

I will contemplate changing the torsion bar to a bigger size , I like the idea but unsure if I want to take all that apart again just yet , I may look for a stock size rear bar and upgrade to Bilstein shocks, The Hellwig are nice , there website says there under production but out of stock , located both at Motorhead or Speedzone site or at least they say they have them , most places have the front but not the rear in stock , I know I want the Bilstein shocks for now , that an maybe a stock size rear bar and see how it does drive , if I do not like I will upgrade the torsion bars and go to Hellwig bars .I will have a lot more free time at end of the year when I retire , and have to get my 72 Challenger inside for the winter , so that will limit some of my space , but do have the Duster over my pit so I can get some work done to it

 

[Oldmanmopar]

As requested. ALL factory 67-72 GM A bodies, (Chevelle, etc), and maybe later attach the sway bar ends by BOLTING to the lower control arms with no end links. Thusly.

View attachment 1716471522

I guess junkyarhero didn't install any with his hands. Only his mouth. Every GTO, Chevelle, Buick I owned all attached the same way. And 72- 74 Torinos and Montegos. None had end links and none fastened to the housing. I had many 65-67 GTO's I street raced. A sway bar would help keep the bigger tires from rubbing the quarters in turns (sway Bar). But just like 72bluNblu they know everything with only experience from a picture book. More then likely never had any just more BS.

Oh, by the way, He asked about the Anti-roll bar? We have an anti-roll bar for the Demon. It keeps the car level when adjusted for launching the car to help control weight transfer on the tires. We are going to a single style wheelie bar to also push weight on the rear tires . This may be a little over their heads . It pushes off the braced trunk floor. Our goal is High 7's with the car, MPH hoping about 170. Radial tire car? of course.

Yes I have help with the car. I know a lot of old racers from my past If I have questions or need help they are there. Been building these cars a long time

 

[72dustervs]

Does anyone know if a Challenger rear bar would fit an A-body ?

 

[Kern Dog]

From lots and lots of reading, it seems if you run heavy sway bars or stabilizer bars, you don't need heavy torsion bars, as they somewhat emulate sway bars in a way and heavy torsion bars coupled with heavy sway bars usually isn't a good idea. At least that's what I understand.

Not really.
Higher spring rates for torsion bars and leafs are great for reducing squat and dive.
My Jigsaw Charger is much more stable with the 1.03 bars than it was with the .88s. It has a big front sway bar and a moderate rear one. When encountering rises and dips in the pavement, the car doesn't wallow or porpoise like it used to do. It takes the imperfections and maintains composure instead of feeling floaty.
I've ran cars with and without a rear sway bar.
Hang on a minute...These terms, Sway bar, stabilizer bar, anti sway bar, anti roll bar....they all refer to the same thing. It is a bar that effectively transfers spring rate from one side to the other when the car leans in a turn. It tries to make both sides react the same to keep the car level.
Back on point...Rear bar or not: Yes, there are instances where the addition of a rear bar can result in too much roll stiffness to the point where the car will want to spin out when rapid steering input is made. Obviously that is not safe for a driver with low skill levels. It is really fun if you can control it.

 

[72bluNblu]

I will contemplate changing the torsion bar to a bigger size , I like the idea but unsure if I want to take all that apart again just yet , I may look for a stock size rear bar and upgrade to Bilstein shocks, The Hellwig are nice , there website says there under production but out of stock , located both at Motorhead site or at least they say they have them , most places have the front but not the rear in stock , I know I want the Bilstein shocks for now , that an maybe a stock size rear bar and see how it does drive , if I do not like I will upgrade the torsion bars and go to Hellwig bars .I will have a lot more free time at end of the year when I retire , and have to get my 72 Challenger inside for the winter , so that will limit some of my space , but do have the Duster over my pit so I can get some work done to it

Sounds like a good plan!

The Bilsteins are a great shock, they really work well with the larger torsion bars but should still be a good upgrade with what you’ve got. Regardless with those in place you’ll be able to continue to make other suspension upgrades without needing to change the shocks out again.

The whole “no rear sway bar on a Mopar” thing came from how undersprung they were in the front. With being that soft up front it was easy to add too much rate in the back and push the car into oversteer mode with a rear bar. But all that goes out the window the moment you step away from a bone stock set up.

Does anyone know if a Challenger rear bar would fit an A-body ?

Yes. I run an E-body Hellwig on my Duster. It’s a slightly larger bar at 7/8”. With the stock end links it puts the end links at a bit of an angle, it’s not terrible but not ideal. I ran mine with the stock end links for quite awhile before changing them out.

 

[72bluNblu]

Here’s the Hellwig 6908 e-body bar on my Duster

 

[Kern Dog]

Yeah I knew shocks were a part of it too. Fact is, I drive like the old man I am and it probably will never matter. lol

Come on....we are about the same age and I refuse to act it. YOU can do the same. Peel out, spin donuts, drive fast and have fun.
Tomorrow is not guaranteed.

 

[MopaR&D]

In my experience gradually building up my Duster for handling at the track, A-bodies are very understeer-prone and need a rear sway bar especially if bigger torsion bars and a front sway bar are installed. I think with old-school slippery skinny tires they might tend to oversteer with a rear sway bar but even with a Hellwig 7/8" adjustable rear bar and Hotchkiss leaf springs it's not easy to get the rear end to swing out on my '70 Duster. Granted I am running wide modern low-profile performance tires on 18" wheels but even with my old Firestone Firehawks on 15" Rallyes it still understeered way more than oversteered.

For street driving if you aren't pushing it to the limit a rear bar will still make the car feel more nimble and "pivot" around corners more than "push through" like they do without it.

 

[junkyardhero]

I guess junkyarhero didn't install any with his hands. Only his mouth.

wow what a rejoinder!

top marks OMM you bested me this time!!

 

[Oldmanmopar]

ah. i've never dealt with that, only stock low rent **** that didn't have bars to begin with or stuff that was already modded. TIL.

also, leave it up to GM to make up the worst possible design of both worlds.

Now I know its BS . The stock LOW RENT **** as you call it. They never had end links on coil spring SWAY BARS. So you never did installed any, Just another made up story. Making your self the hero to make someone look wrong. You really need to stop trolling others with the BS.

A friend of mine has those over sized bars on his Cuda. You need some real sticky soft tires to make it work in a turn. Otherwise it just unhooks throttling out like a drifter.

894, 895 big block bars and the standard stabilizer bar with a small block and a good radial tire always worked and rode the best for me on the street on my a-bodies. And the body could handle those rates

Once you put soft tires on for road racing then go stiffer on the suspension on a street car, It plays hell on the unibody with no added front rail supports or frame ties. Your putting a lot of stress on the tin box that they are not made for. Just something I would consider. Make the car body handle the stress you will be throwing at it . and get a good z rated tire for the street. Make it as stiff as you want. Like my sons 3500 with 5500 springs . Enjoy the ride its yours .

 

[Kern Dog]

EVERY stock torsion bar is way behind the rates that new cars have today.
If you drive any late model car, you'll find they all ride firmer than a stock A body. We have become used to the firmer ride and better cornering ability.
Anyone that runs a torsion bar less than .92 is shortchanging themselves if they want their car to corner well.

Once you put soft tires on for road racing then go stiffer on the suspension on a street car, It plays hell on the unibody with no added front rail supports or frame ties. Your putting a lot of stress on the tin box that they are not made for.

These are the kinds of words expected from a guy that yells at clouds..

"Plays hell on the unibody" ??
Tell that to Rick Ehrenberg and Andy Finkbeiner. They had highly competitive Valiants with oversize torsion bars, sway bars and other improvements. How about the FABO members that recently posted their black Dusters performing impressive autocross times?
Those cars didn't rattle apart. The erroneous belief that stiff torsion bars will rattle the fillings out of your teeth is crap. I have 1.03s in a 67 Dart that rides fine. I have 1.15s in a '70 Charger that rides like a late model Challenger. You either have no experience with big torsion bars (Only repeating what you have read from others) or you had crappy shocks with big torsion bars.
Just like a guy that builds an engine with mismatched components, suspension is the same way. You can't expect a car to handle well if all you do is change shocks...or add a huge sway bar....or large torsion bars. It all has to work together.

 

[junkyardhero]

Now I know its BS . The stock LOW RENT **** as you call it. They never had end links on coil spring SWAY BARS. So you never did installed any, Just another made up story. Making your self the hero to make someone look wrong. You really need to stop trolling others with the BS.

you can't ever leave well enough alone, can you? couldn't just drop it, had to come back and pile on some more of your BS.

i'll bite my tongue a little more this time in my reply, seeing as last time you wet your diaper and went running to the mods about what i said and my use of multi syllable words.

again, your reading comprehension is about as good as your attitude (infer what you will here); so how about you scroll back up and actually read what i wrote.

fact is, you don't know **** about me, and you can leave it at that. do me a favor and keep my name out of your mouth.

blathered on here about some other stuff he knows nothing about. it's not worth reading or responding to.

 

[junkyardhero]

These are the kinds of words expected from a guy that yells at clouds..

the guy is total text book poseur. he wants to get in on the action like all the cool kids but he wouldn't know a good handling car if it hit him and then backed up to run him over again. "old man" indeed.