Replace rocker shafts for sure

-
mini

mini

Small Bore Long Stroke
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
495
Reaction score
287
Location
Chatham Ontario
So I decided to do a tare down of the new to me 60779 Edelbrock heads...
Seems both sides shafts are made of rubber. LOL

20200614_222012.jpg
 
Also noted to clearance the rockers because they seem to have been running the retainers for a long time. 1.58 od springs set at 1.90 installed height
 
mini said:
Also noted to clearance the rockers because they seem to have been running the retainers for a long time. 1.58 od springs set at 1.90 installed height
Click to expand...


I never run a needle bearing on a shaft like that. That’s usually what happens.

If the rockers hit the springs the geometry is wrong. Grinding on a rocker is always bad.
 
rockers hitting the retainers usually means the shafts are too low
whats with those rockers?
aluinim on steel?
needle bearings
wtf
rockers may have to be bushed
contact rocker arm specilists in anderson ca
unless your rocker and or shaft vendor supplied incompatible parts
but I'd do the stripe width test fitst and then the centered on the valve stem test
post pics
sorry about this mini
needle bearing rockers need case hardebed- heat treated shafts
not stock or flash chrome
 
WTH? Oh, needle bearing rockers on standard shafts....that looks crazy!
 
I'm not sure what exactly is going on. Trying to contact t&d machine to figure out if these are hardened shafts. I'm not a huge fan of roller bearings but they are expensive rockers and I didn't expect this issue.

Yeah yellow I think there is a bit of geometry issue going on. The roller tip is sitting closer to the shaft pedestal and not in the middle. I put a set of comp magnum 1.5s on and they landed in the middle of the valve.
 
The tips being in the middle is not of any significance whatsoever for a roller rocker, as far as geometry. Scrub pattern width it is the most important thing on that side of the rocker.

The springs are obviously not the original Edelbrocks, which are 1.460" OD and 1.80" installed height; stock SBM is similar OD. So the rockers hitting the springs is due to the large OD springs, not the rockers per se. Retainers/locks may be changed too.

Had the same spalling problem with PRW PQ rockers with needle bearings on shafts that were supposed to be hardened... but like yours, they were not. I've got the parts to convert them to bushings. The needle bearings with those PQ rockers were cheap ones, with rollers spread far a apart, not really designed to for the loading, and which I suspect you get with a lot of foreign made rockers. An oscillating motion also tends to push the oil out of the needles, per info form needle bearing mfr's, so is a lot harsher use than rotary motion in the same direction like for a motor shaft.
 
nm9stheham said:
The tips being in the middle is not of any significance whatsoever for a roller rocker, as far as geometry. Scrub pattern width it is the most important thing on that side of the rocker.

The springs are obviously not the original Edelbrocks, which are 1.460" OD and 1.80" installed height; stock SBM is similar OD. So the rockers hitting the springs is due to the large OD springs, not the rockers per se. Retainers/locks may be changed too.

Had the same spalling problem with PRW PQ rockers with needle bearings on shafts that were supposed to be hardened... but like yours, they were not. I've got the parts to convert them to bushings. The needle bearings with those PQ rockers were cheap ones, with rollers spread far a apart, not really designed to for the loading, and which I suspect you get with a lot of foreign made rockers. An oscillating motion also tends to push the oil out of the needles, per info form needle bearing mfr's, so is a lot harsher use than rotary motion in the same direction like for a motor shaft.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I know that T&D will send out the rockers with a bushing and not a bearing, but you have to ask for them, and you have to ***** about it because they will try and talk you out of it.

One of the issues I have with needle bearings beside needing freaking really hard shafts is the OD of the bearing is so damn big. It makes the rocker weaker. The bushings are much smaller on the OD so there is much more meat around the rocker, especially under the rocker in the valve spring notch.
 
And FWIW.... I've looked at the pix of the Harland Sharp needle bearings on their website and the spacing of the needles is considerable closer than in the needle bearings in those PRW PQ rockers. Here is the H-S pix: Untitled 1

The spacing between the needles on the PRW PQ needle bearings was almost double that of the H-S needles IIRC.
 
Mini, does that receipt for the rockers say "3/4 SFT", as in 3/4" shaft? (Or maybe that means '3/4 soft' LOL) So do those shafts measure 7/8" OD?

In the 1st pix, the saddle clamp looks a bit loose on both sides....???
 
High Dollar T&D offset rockers..SAME 7/8 od bearing in the rocker, but a reduced diameter shaft hardened shaft to take the 3/4 ID INM bearings so the rockers were not reduced to take the bearing, the shaft was.

anaheim-santa-ana-garden-grove-20120424-00141-jpg.jpg
 
So I just contacted t&d about shafts. $158 each shaft. They are a 3/4 shaft and tell me they do not offer a bushing in place of the rollers.

B3 says it definitely needs some geometry work so I am getting him the specs he requested for that.

Both said definitely an oiling issue with the previous combo. I was planning to tare down my newly built short lock again anyways so I might as well do it right the first time and do oiling mods to send more oil uptop ect.

The hold downs are 7/8s with a thin shim down to the 3/4 shafts. The hold downs also have a sleeve on the shaft. Weird setup
 
pishta said:
High Dollar T&D offset rockers..SAME 7/8 od bearing in the rocker, but a reduced diameter shaft hardened shaft to take the 3/4 ID INM bearings so the rockers were not reduced to take the bearing, the shaft was.

View attachment 1715546096
Click to expand...
Yep.
I'm reading contrary in some other responses...
One day it's fine to grind the rockers the next it's bad. Lol okay.
Must have learned something since then.lmao

The bearing doesn't make the rocker weaker in such a way that it will break.
I've used them too. Thick wall induction hardened shafts are necessary.
Can anyone show a pic of their rocker body broken due to weakness from the roller bearing, probably not.
Another thing, if you cut the stem height down for geometry, say you're stuffing a taller spring package in.. you can create an interference between the retainer and the rocker body on each side of the roller... it can also hit the spring recess if too large a o.d spring is used. Its takes some work combatting other issues to get there..but you can. It's sometimes give and take.
Those grooves are really wide apart huh... not typical.
OP should definitely rethink that whole valve train and get a geometry kit if you wanna use a big spring so you can raise and more the rocker back some.
 
mini said:
So I just contacted t&d about shafts. $158 each shaft. They are a 3/4 shaft and tell me they do not offer a bushing in place of the rollers.

B3 says it definitely needs some geometry work so I am getting him the specs he requested for that.

Both said definitely an oiling issue with the previous combo. I was planning to tare down my newly built short lock again anyways so I might as well do it right the first time and do oiling mods to send more oil uptop ect.

The hold downs are 7/8s with a thin shim down to the 3/4 shafts. The hold downs also have a sleeve on the shaft. Weird setup
Click to expand...

I should have been a skosh more detailed. T&D will install bushings in the rocker, but they won’t retro fit bushings.

And like I said, you have to ***** pretty hard to get them to do bushings, because like everybody else, they have a hard on that needles are better than bushings. I say they ain’t, and if I’m writing the checks, I get bushings.

Any decent engineering books will tell you NOT to use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. Yet, because Chevrolet was so damn cheap and used the GARBAGE ball/stud system that even needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft is better than that junk system.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Yep.
I'm reading contrary in some other responses...
One day it's fine to grind the rockers the next it's bad. Lol okay.
Must have learned something since then.lmao

The bearing doesn't make the rocker weaker in such a way that it will break.
I've used them too. Thick wall induction hardened shafts are necessary.
Can anyone show a pic of their rocker body broken due to weakness from the roller bearing, probably not.
Another thing, if you cut the stem height down for geometry, say you're stuffing a taller spring package in.. you can create an interference between the retainer and the rocker body on each side of the roller... it can also hit the spring recess if too large a o.d spring is used. Its takes some work combatting other issues to get there..but you can. It's sometimes give and take.
Those grooves are really wide apart.. not typical.
Definitely rethink that whole valve train.
Get a geometry kit if you wanna use a big spring so you can raise and more the rocker back some.
Click to expand...


1. I have always said not to grind on a rocker. Never do it. It makes the rocker weaker, unless you run stock stuff. And if that’s the case, why are you grinding on the rocker?

2. Broke several T&D rockers on the dyno with a hydraulic roller cammed 545 HP engine pulling to 5500. I couldn’t get the criminally retarded customer to switch to offset stands, but the keyboard hero’s of moparchat knew better. There is video of it somewhere on the web, but finding it is near impossible.

3. I’ve run springs as big a 1.655 and NEVER ground a rocker. I’m running 1.500 springs now, and didn’t grind anything. Guys were switching to beehive springs because they didn’t want fix their junk geometry, and many here encourage that crap, rather than fixing it correctly. It’s the crime of Chrysler engine building.

4. Who cuts down stem height? Guys normally switch to longer valves, and that changes the geometry. And then they stick a roller tipped rocker on there, and change it some more. And then, they add lift, which changes the geometry even more, but piss on it, everyone has a grinder and you can just make the clearance rather than fix it.
 
yellow rose said:
I should have been a skosh more detailed. T&D will install bushings in the rocker, but they won’t retro fit bushings.

And like I said, you have to ***** pretty hard to get them to do bushings, because like everybody else, they have a hard on that needles are better than bushings. I say they ain’t, and if I’m writing the checks, I get bushings.

Any decent engineering books will tell you NOT to use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. Yet, because Chevrolet was so damn cheap and used the GARBAGE ball/stud system that even needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft is better than that junk system.
Click to expand...
If the rockers were spinning on the shaft or the shaft was spinning it would be a different story. The rockers don't move back and forth enough to take advantage of the needles. Bushings are a much better material for that.
 
toolmanmike said:
If the rockers were spinning on the shaft or the shaft was spinning it would be a different story. The rockers don't move back and forth enough to take advantage of the needles. Bushings are a much better material for that.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. The surface pressure from a bushing to a roller is great and only 1/3rd of the rollers would ever be used.
 
The oval track builds I was doing in the early 90’s started out with HS rockers.

After a certain amount of time, which I’m fuzzy with at the moment, but something like about 1/3 way through a season, they started failing.
Breaking right at the spring relief cut, snapped right off there.
The cross section of material there, where the body was counter bored for the bearing was very thin.
In my mind, after seeing it, it was a “no wonder” moment for me.
They warranted them....... but that didn’t help much when you’re in a championship hunt and can’t finish the night.
They only replaced the broken ones. Then the next time out, some other rocker fails.

At the time you could still get Norris stainless rockers, and that’s what we replaced the HS with.
We had some issues with their bushings and shafts, but once we worked that out...... we never had any more rocker issues...... for years.

I ended up building a spare motor for them the next year, which did get put into service once in a while.
I used Crane golds on that one. Never had any problems with them on that motor.

As for the OP’s oiling dilemma....... just add pushrod oiling.
 
Last edited:
lots of good tips
most true and right on
I like deep case hardened shafts if needle bearings
but I do not like needle bearings (for all he reasons stated plus when one comes apart it's almost but not quite as bad as a Schubek lifter- one of my customers had both go in very quick succession
ship them of to RAS and have them bushed, get their shafts
get the B3 kit
get the cup adjusters
measure for the pushrods and get strongest ones that will fit --
oil through the pushrods
sleep well
 
Oil through pushrod okay. Cam is being ground at bullet atm and I just went with their Morel solid rollers. I will change order for pushrod oiling.

I appreciate all of the info. It's very helpful
 
What happened to the Shubeck lifter, ceramic face shatter and come off in pieces?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top