Replace rocker shafts for sure

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. yellow rose

    yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    25,459
    Likes Received:
    21542
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Location:
    Under The Gun
    Local Time:
    4:36 AM

    IIRC they didn’t take ANY valve float and they were sensitive to spring pressure falling below spec.

    And IIRC, there were some issues later on with the ceramic coming off the lifter and when that happens...

    And IIRC Schubeck was working on a ceramic (or some other materiel like that) roller lifter that didn’t have a wheel, but the lifter had a pretty big radius on it because you could design around the lifter bore size and wheel diameter. IIRC the equivalent convention wheel diameter would have to be something like 2 inches or something wild like that.

    Don’t know what ever happened to that system and how far it was actually developed but it would be interesting to see if it could be developed further.
     
  2. mini

    mini Small Bore Long Stroke

    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    265
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Location:
    Chatham Ontario
    Local Time:
    6:36 AM
    Rockers will stay the same. Unless I find further issues.

    I talked to the guy who bought them off of and his engine builder said he has had multiple shaft issues with t&d but they were likely all the same batch.

    Going to replace both shafts and get that info to Mike for the correction kit.

    Oh and yes these rockers are already cup adjuster with oiling.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wyrmrider

      Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

      Messages:
      3,611
      Likes Received:
      1732
      Joined:
      Sep 5, 2016
      Location:
      los angeles
      Local Time:
      4:36 AM
      way to go mini
      make sure the needles are all ok
      spin them around and see how they feel
      repositioning will give you fresh needles
      I did like the ras case hardned shafts vs the induction hardened ones
      there were a lot of those inductioned hardened ones that would Rockwell ok but it was so thin it would Brinell through
      and chrome...
      ok with bushings
       
    • yellow rose

      yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

      Messages:
      25,459
      Likes Received:
      21542
      Joined:
      Jun 19, 2015
      Location:
      Under The Gun
      Local Time:
      4:36 AM

      If you don’t mind, can you post up the amount of correction it will take to get your geometry correct? I think it will help some see how far off some of this stuff is.

      When I slam my heads back on, I’ll measure mine and post it as well. I know mine is .187ish up and .060 back, of course IIRC.

      TIA
       
      • Like Like x 2
      • nm9stheham

        nm9stheham Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        12,090
        Likes Received:
        3943
        Joined:
        Dec 20, 2013
        Location:
        Waynesboro, VA
        Local Time:
        7:36 AM
        Hey YR,
        Are you figuring those numbers off of the valve side of the rocker only? And if so, are you setting it so that a line from the rocker shaft axis to roller contact tip is 90* to the valve axis at mid lift?
        Tnx.
         
      • yellow rose

        yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

        Messages:
        25,459
        Likes Received:
        21542
        Joined:
        Jun 19, 2015
        Location:
        Under The Gun
        Local Time:
        4:36 AM

        I measured the thickness of the shim and I forget how I came up with how far back the shafts were moved...IIRC I put the shaft on without the shims and took a measurement off some fixed spot. Then I put the shims under the shaft and measured it again.

        I will double check my numbers when it goes back together.
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • mini

          mini Small Bore Long Stroke

          Messages:
          484
          Likes Received:
          265
          Joined:
          Jun 1, 2009
          Location:
          Chatham Ontario
          Local Time:
          6:36 AM
          Question. Where should the oil holes be facing on the shafts? These were facing up. Opposite the side of the load/roller wear
           
        • pishta

          pishta I know I'm right....

          Messages:
          18,591
          Likes Received:
          8064
          Joined:
          Oct 13, 2004
          Location:
          Tustin, CA
          Local Time:
          4:36 AM
          ^^ down..thats where all the pressure is
           
        • mini

          mini Small Bore Long Stroke

          Messages:
          484
          Likes Received:
          265
          Joined:
          Jun 1, 2009
          Location:
          Chatham Ontario
          Local Time:
          6:36 AM
          The rocker "squirter" holes on the shaft to be more specific. I think they are correct at facing up.
           
        • nm9stheham

          nm9stheham Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          12,090
          Likes Received:
          3943
          Joined:
          Dec 20, 2013
          Location:
          Waynesboro, VA
          Local Time:
          7:36 AM
          If there is one hole, they go down. And don't think they 'squirt' as much as they just 'ooze' with the stock oiling system. The pressure up in the shafts is pretty low with the stock oiling setup.
           
          • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
          • mini

            mini Small Bore Long Stroke

            Messages:
            484
            Likes Received:
            265
            Joined:
            Jun 1, 2009
            Location:
            Chatham Ontario
            Local Time:
            6:36 AM
            Talked to Mike today. He had some great suggestions. Also gave confidence that t&d are in fact good rockers over others but stresses that oiling mods are required and broke down everything I should do. Including the crossover valley oiling tube, tapping and installing a .040 restrictor to keep oil pressure up and the common other oiling mods posted here.

            He also mentioned how bushings will work with this application but without an immense amount of oil will wear quickly with high spring pressure compared to a good roller bearing setup.

            Also noted not to use pushrod oiling as through the rocker will provide adequate amounts of oil with the correct modification. And you may end up over oiling and creating low pressure at high rpms.
             
          • yellow rose

            yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

            Messages:
            25,459
            Likes Received:
            21542
            Joined:
            Jun 19, 2015
            Location:
            Under The Gun
            Local Time:
            4:36 AM

            How much spring pressure are you using?
             
          • pishta

            pishta I know I'm right....

            Messages:
            18,591
            Likes Received:
            8064
            Joined:
            Oct 13, 2004
            Location:
            Tustin, CA
            Local Time:
            4:36 AM
            Oil sent to rockers is timed, so your not going to get alot of volume unless you groove some bearings. Of course higher RPM's will fill them up good. Not sure what a grooved bearing will do to overall oil pressure as it will be bleeding everywhere up there, probably why its timed to begin with.
             
          • mini

            mini Small Bore Long Stroke

            Messages:
            484
            Likes Received:
            265
            Joined:
            Jun 1, 2009
            Location:
            Chatham Ontario
            Local Time:
            6:36 AM
            Around 240 closed 580 open
             
            • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
            • PRH

              PRH Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              2,651
              Likes Received:
              4058
              Joined:
              Dec 14, 2018
              Location:
              So. Burlington, Vt
              Local Time:
              7:36 AM
              Of course....... if it had pushrod oiling, you could plug the original oiling to the top.
              You know........ like the factory did with the magnums.
               
            • mini

              mini Small Bore Long Stroke

              Messages:
              484
              Likes Received:
              265
              Joined:
              Jun 1, 2009
              Location:
              Chatham Ontario
              Local Time:
              6:36 AM
              And how would the shaft oiling be at that point? My guess is dry. Also had a thought, with a solid roller with lash wouldn't the oil just slop out of the pushrod and pressure would be lost?
               
            • PRH

              PRH Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              2,651
              Likes Received:
              4058
              Joined:
              Dec 14, 2018
              Location:
              So. Burlington, Vt
              Local Time:
              7:36 AM
              Unless there is something unusual about your T&D’s...... they’re designed to pushrod oil.

              Maybe yours aren’t suitable for it, but a little inspection would answer that question.

              B90D6B15-E7D6-4284-AF49-D1C456782178.png
               
              • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
              • mini

                mini Small Bore Long Stroke

                Messages:
                484
                Likes Received:
                265
                Joined:
                Jun 1, 2009
                Location:
                Chatham Ontario
                Local Time:
                6:36 AM
                Features & Benefits of T&D shaft-mount roller rocker systems T&D rocker arms have an oil passage (see diagram) built into most rocker arms to channel pressurized oil from the pushrod cup to the shaft bearings and then on to the roller tip.
                 
              • mini

                mini Small Bore Long Stroke

                Messages:
                484
                Likes Received:
                265
                Joined:
                Jun 1, 2009
                Location:
                Chatham Ontario
                Local Time:
                6:36 AM
                No shit. I totally missed that.
                 
              • PRH

                PRH Well-Known Member

                Messages:
                2,651
                Likes Received:
                4058
                Joined:
                Dec 14, 2018
                Location:
                So. Burlington, Vt
                Local Time:
                7:36 AM
                But......

                You should verify yours are like that.

                If they are set up for it .....if it were mine...... they would get pushrod oiled.

                Just like every w7/w8/w9 build.
                 
                Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
                • Agree Agree x 1
                • mini

                  mini Small Bore Long Stroke

                  Messages:
                  484
                  Likes Received:
                  265
                  Joined:
                  Jun 1, 2009
                  Location:
                  Chatham Ontario
                  Local Time:
                  6:36 AM
                  20200618_112513.jpg 20200618_112519_HDR.jpg 20200618_112522_HDR.jpg 20200618_112530.jpg
                   
                • mini

                  mini Small Bore Long Stroke

                  Messages:
                  484
                  Likes Received:
                  265
                  Joined:
                  Jun 1, 2009
                  Location:
                  Chatham Ontario
                  Local Time:
                  6:36 AM
                  Screenshot_20200618-132316.png
                   
                • PRH

                  PRH Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  2,651
                  Likes Received:
                  4058
                  Joined:
                  Dec 14, 2018
                  Location:
                  So. Burlington, Vt
                  Local Time:
                  7:36 AM
                  Looks like pushrod oiling would be “no problemo”.

                  Sure...... they “can” use the stock oiling........ But they don’t have to.

                  The first set of those I used went on some w2 heads.
                  The guy at T&D was like....... can you pushrod oil?
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

                  Messages:
                  25,459
                  Likes Received:
                  21542
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Under The Gun
                  Local Time:
                  4:36 AM

                  I disagree with footnote 104. If the geometry is correct, that rocker will take a 1.625 spring. Honestly, I can’t understand how T&D doesn’t get this. They tell people their stuff is bolt on, and it damn sure ain’t.

                  BTW, I get pushrod oiling, but I don’t use it with any block that has OE chrysler oiling. You can get enough oil to the shafts and rockers with a grooves cam, but you can’t control all the leakage at the lifters.

                  As I’ve said before, if the system is correct chrysler oiling of the shafts and adjusters are good to well past 8500 RPM. And that was using bushed rockers and 340 on the seat and IIRC 800 or a bit more over the nose.
                   
                  • Like Like x 1
                  • Agree Agree x 1
                  • Wyrmrider

                    Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

                    Messages:
                    3,611
                    Likes Received:
                    1732
                    Joined:
                    Sep 5, 2016
                    Location:
                    los angeles
                    Local Time:
                    4:36 AM
                    and drilling the shafts yr style
                     
                  1. This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.