Roller rocker choice for HYD rollercam/for High Miles-Full life

Big Block A body Tech

  1. NITROTRIP

    NITROTRIP Active Member

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    Hi everyone,
    I am looking for real experience, not "these are work'n great in my setup" then find out 6 posts later they have 7000 miles on there high mileage setup.:rolleyes:
    A bit of background specs on what I have. Springs, 400-450lb @ max lift of .590 to .640, max rpm 6000. Trick Flow 240 roller cam heads to keep velocity up for low to mid rpm max torque.
    4.250" stroke 440 cam'd for 2200-5000rpm sweet spot. Everyday driver in New Mexico.
    55miles to closest store.
    Aluminum is out for material cycle life with roller, flat lifter spring ok, roller spring no.
    Comp now has steel rocker but upper push rod/adjuster upside down for shaft oiling, don't know
    when they changed as I used them in years past.
    Oh, I have built over 350 automotive and diesel engines as a trade/business over 30yrs but none in the last 12yrs. A bit out of touch with what is new. New rockers/parts ect. out there that I know I don't know about. Basis for my question to all of you.

    Thank You everyone,
    for your help and input.
    Rick
    PS: Sorry everyone, I somehow missed a very good super response posting
    about rocker arms a few pages down. If you have anything to add here that would be great. again sorry for not looking far enough ahead or just plain not
    seeing your awsome other responses in the other post.
    Thank You all again,
    Rick
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  2. yellow rose

    yellow rose Overnight Sensation

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    That’s not enough spring load to make me not use aluminum. If you want steel, contact Mike at B3 racing engines and let him hook you up with rockers and a geometry correction kit.
     
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    • NITROTRIP

      NITROTRIP Active Member

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      :D
      Hi Yellow Rose,
      Thank you for your reply.
      I have a complete unused Crane premium gold aluminum 1.6 rocker set from when I had my shop
      14yrs ago. With there matched thick shafts and HD hold downs and studs.
      So you think they will last 150,000 miles on a street hyd roller? This engine is going in my 76 Dodge truck to everyday drive and to tow my 69 big block Dart & enclosed trailer now and then over these mountain passes. The reason for the small Trick Flow heads/dual plain intake and
      4.250 crankshaft. Also for the fun factor 98% of the time. I am 61 and can't stand a no power
      truck let a lone car. Life is to short to drive anything good for the environment.:D:poke:
      Any way, what is your opinion on the Crane gold aluminum rockers for this?
      Thank you again,
      Rick
       
    • oldkimmer

      oldkimmer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      My 470 stroker was built in 1998. A few thousand street miles and many quarter mile passes. Shift at 7000 without nitros, 8000 with nitros. Has the Mopar Performance blue 1.5 rockers. Same thing as the Crane Golds. Solid roller cam .625 lift. 670 lbs spring pressure. I believe a Comp. 943 spring. Maybe this will help u out some. Kim
       
      Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
    • Bewy

      Bewy Well-Known Member

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      Nitro,
      I use steel rockers for the same reason you do. I bought Comp Steel rockers recently, but haven't used them yet. Like you say, the adjuster has been changed to accept a ball/ball pushrod. A good thing as far as I am concerned because you have more pushrod choices. I will be using 7/16" diam prods.
      Also using the TF 240 heads. These rockers/head combo will need a 0.020" shim under the shaft to get the geometry I want.
       
    • yellow rose

      yellow rose Overnight Sensation

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      If the geometry is right they will go a long way. The biggest rocker failure is from incorrect geometry. Simple as that. Second in line is not enough idle oil pressure. Anything below 35 pounds at a hot idle will almost guarantee the rocker will grab the shaft.

      I’ve seen the best of rockers break in short order because the geometry was off. That’s why I said to contact Mike at B3. He can set you up with a geometry correction kit that works.

      IIRC he can even Bush those rockers (which is what I’m going to have him do as I have the MP aluminum rockers which are the same as the Crane rocker) and I’m going to have him convert them to a cup adjuster. The geometry is a bit better with the cup adjusters.

      FWIW, for my entire life I’ve said a steel rocker is better than an aluminum rocker. The problem is the junk shit Chevrolet “racing engine” is such steaming pile of crap with its cheap assed stud mounted rockers, and because it’s so much cheaper to use aluminum the whole aftermarket world, thanks to brilliant marketing was sold the aluminum rocker. It was a cheap fix for a piece of shit design.

      You rarely see stud mounted rockers on a Chevy any more. It took 4 decades for the GM crowd to wake up but any decent GM engine is running shaft mount rockers. And some of the best “minds” in the business spent many thousands of dollars (or more) converting Chrysler stuff to ball/stud rockers.

      I know there was a ball/stud 383 and IIRC a ball/stud hemi. They conveniently love to forget that sad history in trying to prove GM had a better idea. Even the highly respected Smokey Yunick said the SBC was a “relatively reliable high speed turtle”. Literally hundreds of thousands of R&D hours and tens of millions of R&D dollars later and they use shaft rockers.

      Ok, my rant for the day is done.
       
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      • NITROTRIP

        NITROTRIP Active Member

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        Hi Bewy,
        Here is why I ruled out the comp rockers. Physics sez fluid goes with gravity, into a cup. You need
        push rod oil pressure to fill cup upside down, shaft rockers oil push rod with squirt hole. Push rod
        choices are a non issue with a cut to fit/press in top and adjustable checking rod. And 12" cheap
        vernier caliper/cutoff wheel/ drill and 1" small belt sander to square tube and press or tap in tip.
        A cheap Harbor Freight lathe is a push rod master piece. We are talking under 6000rpm street/endurance high mileage here not high rpm racing setup. I prefer cooling/lube oil in a cup
        like in the top of the lifter unless you have psi to keep it oiled.
        Out here in the western US the only fluid that flows uphill is water going to money.
        Thank you for your reply,
        Rick
         
      • yellow rose

        yellow rose Overnight Sensation

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        I’m lost. Are you pushrod oiling? If not, the oil flows through the adjuster under pressure to the pushrod. I run cup adjusters and if I have a choice my W2 engine will be cup adjusters. It’s just better by far than the ball adjuster and the way the oil gets out there.
         
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        • NITROTRIP

          NITROTRIP Active Member

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          (Rant)! Yellow Rose- That is the most refreshing, to the point, spot on, my argument, bit of automotive design savvey-savey-savv-owell. I have had the pleasure reading in a very long
          time. But you missed one very import'nt bit. The 1500+$$$ to teach that valve train the
          correct valve to open and when. LOL

          I need to look up Mike at B3 as you mentioned. Sounds like he might have what I have been
          making myself in the past.

          Here is how I setup my valve trains in the past. Please chime in to add or poke a hole in this
          with your input.
          My train of thought goes from the valve to cam not the other way. For starters lifters are
          heavy, rollers more so, just keep that in mind here. Ok, first I work the geometry from valve to shaft for min sweep, .040 or so. Side to side is a given. Shaft to pushrod, push rod long-adjuster
          short, but try for min max lift angle at push rod/adjuster point. Remember heavy lifters, I have the cam ground with less lift and then make it up with rocker ratio. The springs job also has to keep the heavy lifter in contact with the cam lobe. Simple math-1.5 ratio rocker, 50lb force from spring on rocker tip is 100lb back down to heavy lifter. 1.7 ratio rocker, 30lb force from spring
          ='s 100lb to lifter. Something to think about.
          Things to think on.
          1.5 rocker is more forgiving with non-ideal geometry. To short a push rod-broken adjuster.
          A little more forgiving?
          1.7 rocker is less forgiving? But with correct push rod length and rocker arm setup you have
          better rod/adjuster angle. And less heavy lifter travel, less chance of oil ports on lifter out of the bore.
          You have all heard high ratio rockers are not as stable. Yes it is true----for the 90% that just bolt stuff together. For the other 10%--YAH BABY that runs good.
          For the other 90% not willing to do the work refer back to the (Rant). It poked me to write this
          and I hope for some more discussion.

          Thank you all,
          Rick
           
        • NITROTRIP

          NITROTRIP Active Member

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          Hi Yellow rose,
          I called comp last week and they told me there steel rocker does not oil thru the adjuster cup bolt.
          They just changed out to the cup bolt. Said I should oil like a chevy. They have steered me wrong before with there tech line.
          The old set I have here gravity oils. Other company's I can't comment on. The reason I started this post to see whats new in the last 12-13yrs. I am using the good stock type shaft as in your cool rant.
          Thank you for your post. It came up as I was answering your prior one.
          Rick
           
        • MOPAROFFICIAL

          MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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          Only thing crane had were some faulty adjusters, the rest was good.
          Change them if you're not sure.

          Comp pro magnums are what ive been using, with harland sharp adjusters...that also fit cranes.

          Gold luck.
           
        • Bewy

          Bewy Well-Known Member

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          Nitro, Comp bloke gave you wrong info [ post #10 ]
          The adjuster bolt [with cup on the end to suit a prod with a ball ] has a machined recess half way up the threads. There is a hole drilled from this recess into the centre of the adjuster, which mates with a hole drilled upwards from the cup. Then there is hole from the shaft hole into the thread area. So that takes care of the adjuster ball/cup lubrication. In the top of the rocker, there is a small hole aimed towards the valve end of the rocker, to lube the roller tip.
           
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          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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            I agree 100% about the most important thing being setting the geometry up correctly. That said, I would still run something steel like the Comps. Just one peon's opinion.
             
          • yellow rose

            yellow rose Overnight Sensation

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            Then that’s a bad design. The PRW stainless steel rockers I run oil through the cup adjusters like I mentioned above.

            Also, weight on the cam side of the system isn’t really that critical. It’s the weight on the valve side that is critical. That’s why the GM guys are busting their balls to get a .904 lifter in the blocks. A bigger lifter (which weighs more) can run a bigger roller wheel, which allows a axle and needles or bushing. @lead69 and I will be building a SBC that is getting .904 lifters.

            As for geometry, the bet thing is t read the tech pages on B3’s web site. I do know just shimming the shaft isn’t the correct way to do it. If the shaft goes up it also has to move back away from the valve or you didn’t do all the work of correcting the geometry.

            Those cheap assed shims that Hughes and Mancini sells are just that. I’ve seen shims like that break the rocker stands. The only good that came from that was that to save the head you had to mill the stands down and use blocks.
             
          • yellow rose

            yellow rose Overnight Sensation

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            That’s what I thought. Otherwise you’d have to have pushrod oiling. I’ve never seen a set of the Comp rockers but it seems a bit weird to build a rocker with cup adjusters for the LA engine and then make it pushrod oiling only.
             
          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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            A lot of time when they break the stands, people forget that you sometimes need to oval the holes in the shaft to allow it to "go" where the shims want it too. They tight it down, put everything in a bind and "SNAP". That's why Mike @B3RE is so good. He TELLS you about all that ahead of time so you have the tools and knowledge to do it right. The guy just flat knows his stuff and is an asset to this community.
             
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            • MOPAROFFICIAL

              MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Put a 5.011-5.025 valve in the heads and watch the pattern center. The stand leans toward the valve.. the valve is straight up in relation.. so that means the stand 'if raised' will bring the rocker closer to the stem...while if the stem is taller... it only gets further away aka increasing the distance between it and the rocker/roller tip.
              It's all relevant with geometry. Whether partial tackle it and keep shit from breaking or completely master it and have the perfect translation between cam and valve. Start on this side or that side...it all meets in the middle eventually..
               
              Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
            • MOPAROFFICIAL

              MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Most of the shafts have a larger hole than the 5/16 bolt that goes through, it moves fine with the shims...aside from stacking them that is.
              Tightening them unevenly is what I've seen do some harm.
               
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              • RustyRatRod

                RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                You're absolutely right! But in my case with this ported slant 6 head, I put 318 valves in it. They are about .300" longer than the stock slant 6 valves, so that required a lot of relocation. I haven't fitted the shaft yet, as I still need to get the intake valves back cut. But it's nice to know to "look out" for that. ;)
                 
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                • MOPAROFFICIAL

                  MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  Are the ford valve closer to stock length?
                   
                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  I think so, but I didn't want the stock length. I wanted the extra length the 318 valves have so I would have better valve sprAng options.
                   
                • oldkimmer

                  oldkimmer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  What r u gonna use for push rods? R u shimming the shafts up as in making the stands taller? Kim
                   
                • oldkimmer

                  oldkimmer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  What do u do about the difference in height between intake and exhaust valves? Or do the exhaust sit higher on the seat? Kim
                   
                • NITROTRIP

                  NITROTRIP Active Member

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                  Hi Yellow Rose,
                  40yrs ago we sponsered 3 outlaw sprint cars with 350 based engines. Rules then were flat tappet
                  cams and NO mushroom tappets. So we bored the GM blocks on a Bridgeport mill for .904 lifters and then ramped the cams for them. The chevy mushroom lifters were .925. Tech never found them, they just looked for the mushroom. The GM guy's are just now going to to the .904 lifter for the faster lobe ramp because no one makes mushroom cam and lifters for them.
                  The Chy mushroom lifters were a full 1" inch in diameter, I have some of both from way back when. Look it up, that is where the old battleship Chy valve springs came from. Heavy lifters at high rpm.
                  If the weight of the lifter does not matter, what magic force keeps it in contact with the cam lobe other than the valve spring. The only thing I can think of is what is called a Rev Kit. Springs
                  on top of the lifter so you can run a lighter tension/weight valve spring for ultra high rpm engines. This is before all the newer better rocker arms. The basis for my first post, what is out there that is different/better than 15yrs ago? The only thing that trumps physics is marketing. I did'nt start engine work yesterday I stopped
                  14years ago. I want to know what is new and you all are using and why? What has been working for everyone. I am now building this engine for myself not others as in the past.
                  Thank you all
                  for your posts,
                  Rick
                   
                  Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
                • MOPAROFFICIAL

                  MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  I'm stating to use an intake/exhaust of the same length, be it 5.011 or 5.025 granted some are split int exh of each, it's only .014 diff! Fwiw I don't fuss over .015 or less height diff between int and exh.
                  Exhaust valve have a thicker margin anyhow, so maybe that why the diff. I have never thought about it much with all the more important things in building an engine.
                   
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