Slight wallowing during corning......

Discussion in 'Suspension, Steering and Chassis' started by burrpenick, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. burrpenick

    burrpenick '72 Duster

    Messages:
    339
    Likes Received:
    17
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Location:
    Florida
    Local Time:
    6:16 PM
    '72 Duster, w/360/AT, no sway bars and THINK the front T bars are slant 6 type. A friend suggests I replace those w/340 Torsion bars and also add a front sway bar. Do I need both? THis car WONT see many miles and certainly not many highway miles.
     
  2. TrailBeast

    TrailBeast Slightly Twisted Member

    Messages:
    18,745
    Likes Received:
    4905
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Location:
    Arizona
    View My Photos
    Local Time:
    4:16 PM
    If the tires are up and not low on air the torsion bars will make a big difference.
    I'm talking 1" bars or over.
    The other stuff will help, as well as boxing in the lower control arms but slant bars are sissy as far as cornering.
     
  3. Murray

    Murray FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    623
    Likes Received:
    258
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Location:
    San Jose, California
    Local Time:
    4:16 PM
    Wallowing? Yes, you need both. You need the 8...something bars or the 9....something. While you are there check the condition of all the bushings. Don't forget the shocks to stabilize the front end.
     
  4. MileHighDart

    MileHighDart FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,794
    Likes Received:
    1289
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Location:
    Lyons, CO
    Local Time:
    12:16 AM
    I would suggest the PST 1.03 bars, nice upgrade from the /6 or even the 340 bars. Made my car feel firmer and more under my control. Not not harsh or too stiff at all.

    An it’s just my opinion, but I think all these old mopars should have sway bars. Even a factory stock type sway bar will be a big improvement over no bar at all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

      Messages:
      3,375
      Likes Received:
      1590
      Joined:
      Feb 7, 2013
      Location:
      Phila. Pa
      Local Time:
      7:16 PM
      Its easy enough to measure the torsion bar diameter. You can use a crude caliper - like a c-clamp if you don't have a real one.

      Wallowing - my first suspect would be shocks. Check each corner.
      That's where I'm going with this. Go find the problem. Whether its bushings or shocks. Also check the rear leaf springs. They have bushings too - and they control the rear lateral motion.

      If you do find the car was set up with a slant six suspension, (t-bars and leafs) then converting to the ones used on v-8 Darts is a good idea.
      If you are looking to reduce body roll in corners ( a little different than 'wallowing' but your may mean it different than I take it) then the front anti-sway bar is a good addition. However to put a factory bar on will require welding tabs onto the lower control or getting a pair made that way. You can get aftermarket bars - such as from Firmfeel, that will not require welding. They will be larger than stock, so if going that route, discuss with them the matching package (t-bars and rear leafs).
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • burrpenick

        burrpenick '72 Duster

        Messages:
        339
        Likes Received:
        17
        Joined:
        Jan 16, 2008
        Location:
        Florida
        Local Time:
        6:16 PM
        This '72 Duster was an orig slant 6, in addition to the V8, now has new SS rear springs and new shocks and all suspension stuff including bushings. Another possibility of the swaying could be that the rear tires are on the large size- 245/60/15 vs 195/70/14 up front- I plan to up the fronts to 215/70s in spring. I have a line on used 340 T bars and he most likely has a 340 sway bar. This car also now has later model factory front discs- so will I still need to weld a mounting tab? I dont want to invest a fortune in a fix here as this car was never built to drive on the open road, but I would welcome a firmer body feel in the mts.
         
      • Mattax

        Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

        Messages:
        3,375
        Likes Received:
        1590
        Joined:
        Feb 7, 2013
        Location:
        Phila. Pa
        Local Time:
        7:16 PM
        Are you drag racing it? For drag racing the slant six bars can be used with the super stock springs for wieght transfer during launch.
        If that 245/60-15 is a MT Sportsman or something like that, some of what you feel may be in the tire.

        Other than for drag racing, yes the 340 t-bars will be better, and the sway bar will help with body roll in cornering.
        Not knowing the shocks - its hard to say what they are matched to control. Try the larger bars and see. That's generally easy change unless they are stuck.
        That's a pretty small tire up front and the rear is tall. That and the SS springs in the rear put more rake on the car which loads the front even more.
        Say roughly 12.4" radius front and 13.3" radius on the rear. Almost 1" difference in ride height. :eek:

        With the SS springs, for street use, I'd recommend going up to at least the largest factory t-bars, or .990 or 1.03 aftermarket. Should be able to find any of those second hand if you're not in a rush and have time.

        As far the lower control arms tabs, you'll have to look at them. If original to the car, unlikely to have tabs unles the anti-sway bar was ordered as an option.

        Then yes, definately need larger tires to handle the additional loading. Anti-sway bars load the outer tire even more during cornering. Its their one draw back, and is outweighed by their benefits.
         
        Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
      • burrpenick

        burrpenick '72 Duster

        Messages:
        339
        Likes Received:
        17
        Joined:
        Jan 16, 2008
        Location:
        Florida
        Local Time:
        6:16 PM
        No racing! Yes, I knew the rear was a little tall, and plan to even it up some in spring with the 215 tire. Shocks are nothing special, Monroes etc. I will be gettin the Tbars and sway over the winter. How can I tell IF i'll have to weld tabs on the K frame for a sway bar? I believe this is a V8 K member.
         
      • Mattax

        Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

        Messages:
        3,375
        Likes Received:
        1590
        Joined:
        Feb 7, 2013
        Location:
        Phila. Pa
        Local Time:
        7:16 PM
        Sorry I hit 'post' before finishing.
        As far the lower control arms tabs, you'll have to look at them. If original to the car, unlikely to have tabs unles the anti-sway bar was ordered as an option.
        K-frame is not usually a problem. Those brackets can be bolted on. I forget which type of bar and brackets is used on '71. There are illustrations in the factory service manual in the suspension chapter. Then search here and 'For sale' for photos of lower control arms with tabs. Soon you'll recognize the different years & types.

        With the SS springs, for street use, I'd recommend going up to at least the largest factory t-bars, or .990 or 1.03 aftermarket. Should be able to find any of those second hand if you're not in a rush and have time.

        Then definately need larger tires to handle the additional loading. Anti-sway bars load the outer tire even more during cornering. Its their one draw back, and is outweighed by their benefits.
        215/70r14 is a good size all round for general use, and especially rough streets.
         
      • AJ/FormS

        AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

        Messages:
        14,185
        Likes Received:
        3594
        Joined:
        Jan 19, 2014
        Location:
        South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
        View My Photos
        Local Time:
        6:16 PM
        I agree with Mattax on all points except maybe the front tire size.
        With SS springs,and 1.03 bars, and a sway bar, I recommend as big tire and as tall a tire, that you can successfully fit up front and on an aluminum wheel. That 215/70R14s mentioned probably comes in at about 25.8 which is a good height for the SS springs.
        But if you are not racing then I would recommend to fit 235/60-14s on 7.5s with a zero or very close to zero, offset; then lowering the rear with blocks made for that, to level the car. That should give you a little ohchit room, if you come into the turn just a little too hot.. These 235s are about 25.1 tall, so .35 lower ride height. Resist the urge to put those 235s on 7" rims, the tires will just roll over onto the sidewalls, and lift the inside tread, and then you might as well have just installed the 215s.
        The measuring rim for a 235 tire is 6.5. That just means that the 235 is a 235 on a 6.5 rim. That does not mean that the 235 should be installed on a 6.5. You can install it on any reasonably close rim you choose, but it will no longer be a 235..... cuz the 235 is a section measurement.
        The correct rim size for any tire depends on it's usage. In straight-line cruising, that 6.5 wheel might be just fine. But when you stuff it into a corner it all goes to heck. An 8.5 might be great in a corner, but you might not be able to get the beads installed. And it is hard to fit even an 8" rim on an A-body at zero offset. So by default, that just leaves the 7.5s.On a 7.5 the section width will grow just over an inch, so now it becomes a 260. and since the height has not changed, it is now a 54 series tire. In conclusion then, the 235/60-14 on a 6.5 rim, has become a 260/54-14 on a 7.5 rim. The magic of the new system. But hey, it gets better, tires are sized to the nearest 5mm, so depending on the tire-pressure, that 260 could be rated at 265/ or 255/ and of course the profile would change again,lol....... crazystuff
         
        Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
      • burrpenick

        burrpenick '72 Duster

        Messages:
        339
        Likes Received:
        17
        Joined:
        Jan 16, 2008
        Location:
        Florida
        Local Time:
        6:16 PM
        My car is driven very little, and only locally during the summer months. I mentioned some slight wallowing during corning at 60mph- and got lots of ideas, mostly heavier torsion bars and a front sway bar. My question now is could I get away with only one of these- thinking the torsion bars may be easier since my front end does not have the sway bar mounting tabs? Would changing to just the bars make a noticeable difference?
         
      • AJ/FormS

        AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

        Messages:
        14,185
        Likes Received:
        3594
        Joined:
        Jan 19, 2014
        Location:
        South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
        View My Photos
        Local Time:
        6:16 PM
        shocks. Wallowing is a control problem. Shocks might cure it unless you are seriously overdriving your tires and suspension.
         
      • burrpenick

        burrpenick '72 Duster

        Messages:
        339
        Likes Received:
        17
        Joined:
        Jan 16, 2008
        Location:
        Florida
        Local Time:
        6:16 PM
        THANKS, again. this was minor; the shocks are not fancy but pretty new. Have larger rubber in back too, planning on a larger size up front in spring. And maybe 340 T bars to boot.
         
      • Jim Lusk

        Jim Lusk Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        3,815
        Likes Received:
        289
        Joined:
        Mar 8, 2006
        Location:
        Fresno, CA
        View My Photos
        Local Time:
        4:16 PM
        In my opinion, you need both bigger torsion bars and a sway bar. If only one, I would go with the sway bar. Tabs are available and easy to weld on. I would also agree with the comments above that a pair of larger (1.03") bars would be best.