Sloppy steering

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73stroked duster

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1972 duster. Steering is very sloppy. Replaced both arms. The rest of the linkage seems to be ok. Would the problem be the steering gear?
 
Nature of the beast if your used to rack and pinion.

Have someone e turn the wheel back and forth. You get under with a flashlight and look for movement.

When you say replaced both arms do you mean idler and steering?
 
Could be. Just a little slop in the sector can translate into a lot of slop at the wheel. Its almost undetectable with the eye.
 
Jack one wheel off the ground.
Grab it at the 12 and 6 position. If there is play, observe the hub and you'll see if its the wheel bearings.
Then go to the 9 and 3 o'clock position. Turn the wheel and see what in the steering linkage moves together and where something is loose.
Its a little awkward but doable. Or get a buddy. Do not go under without a jack stand of course.
Do the same on the other side.
This is how you'll find what's worn or loose.
 
If everything else is fine. Could be the gears in the box are worn and you can turn the adjuster bolt on the steering box.

pitman-shaft-over-center-adjustment.png
 
What does "seems to be ok" mean?

I recommend you go through it systematically. Get a friend. Have him move the wheel back and forth. Start at the column and work your way down. EG look at the column shaft, the coupler and the steering shaft of the box. Is there any play between the column and the coupler? Between the shaft and the box shaft? HOW ABOUT IS the box loose on the K member?

Check the play between pitman shaft and steering shaft, rotational play, vertical play, and play in the bearing AKA radial play.

Check for movement at the ball in the pitman, look for vertical movement of the idler, and play in the tie rod ends

Then get out the shop manual and review how to check ball joints, and so on. Don't forget front wheel bearings, bolts loose on the spindles, wheel bolts and air pressure.

Also keep a wary jaundiced eye for breakage, rust, damage to the K member and frame mounts.

Check for play in the LCA pivots and so on
 
If you replace the gear box, I would recommend getting a new or rebuilt unit...

You wouldn't want to replace it with an old worn out one and have sloppy seconds... :eek:
 
The steering boxes weren't great from the factory when new. 50 years later, they terrible. When suggesting and adjustment on a factory box, nobody seems to do this properly. The first thing you are supposed to do is back off the sector lash. You must adjust the preload on the worm first. Once that is set, then you can adjust the lash with the sector.
Or, treat your self to modern, bolt in steering...Bergmanautocraft.com
 
If everything else is fine. Could be the gears in the box are worn and you can turn the adjuster bolt on the steering box.

View attachment 1716033785
Hi, Per your diagram, this is the steering box, correct? Ive heard not to turn the screw or nut to much, which do you do first please, I rebuilt my front end with a PST kit, everything new. Still has some slack in the column turning the steering wheel, Please advise when you can, Thanks.
 
Yes, you dont want to turn it to much. It is on the steering box. You will start off by loosening the nut then when you turn the screw in the center you will adjust it by 1/8 turns at a time. Adjust it then drive it a bit then adjust drive etc. Also, make sure you shaft is solid and not the problem before adjusting. Depending on how worn out the box is you may be able to get it better but not perfect.
 
Yes, you dont want to turn it to much. It is on the steering box. You will start off by loosening the nut then when you turn the screw in the center you will adjust it by 1/8 turns at a time. Adjust it then drive it a bit then adjust drive etc. Also, make sure you shaft is solid and not the problem before adjusting. Depending on how worn out the box is you may be able to get it better but not perfect.
 
You are supposed to back off the sector adjustment first. Set the lash on the worm gear, then readjust the sector.
 
Before spending a bunch of money-

check the toe.

Mine was almost 1/4" "out" and it felt like it was "sloppy".

Set it to 5/16" "in" (almost factory) and it drives like the whole front end got rebuilt.

$0

There are several ways to do it, but I built myself a sliding toe gauge from EMT conduit, square tube and angle stock because I know it will get used again. I believe I've got $6 in it because I had some stuff laying around.
 
Disagree to check the toe?

That's like disagreeing to look for oncoming traffic before you pull out.

(But some people don't)
 
Is this like sloppy seconds?
 
The steering boxes weren't great from the factory when new. 50 years later, they terrible. When suggesting and adjustment on a factory box, nobody seems to do this properly. The first thing you are supposed to do is back off the sector lash. You must adjust the preload on the worm first. Once that is set, then you can adjust the lash with the sector.
Or, treat your self to modern, bolt in steering...Bergmanautocraft.com
Someone who is not familiar could take this to mean "they just drove terrible." Not true. Before I tore the 67 apart, with modern radials, heavier T bars, a factory anti-sway bar and decent shocks, it handled pretty great. 70-100 on a decent highway? No problem. going around curves? Felt great, a pleasure.

My point is, don't just dismiss stock components as "bad" unless they are actually worn/ loose/ defective.
 
Someone who is not familiar could take this to mean "they just drove terrible." Not true. Before I tore the 67 apart, with modern radials, heavier T bars, a factory anti-sway bar and decent shocks, it handled pretty great. 70-100 on a decent highway? No problem. going around curves? Felt great, a pleasure.

My point is, don't just dismiss stock components as "bad" unless they are actually worn/ loose/ defective.
It sounds like you are misunderstanding my comment. Sure, after your suspension is fully modified, it feels good. That's not what I said. I've driven many unrestored cars with low mileage. The steering isn't good. Add a 100,000 miles, if the car even could go that far and comment on the steering, especially compared to what everyone is used to driving today,
 
No, not "fully modified." Just rebuilt with good ball joints, tie rod ends, bushings. "We" drove these girls hundreds of thousands of miles. My old 70RR had over 140K on the clock when I sold it, with one front end rebuild. Admittedly, it had the best T bars the factory had, but nothing else was "modified" or aftermarket.

Even so, that old girl would handle circles around most any "family sedan" of the era

MY point is you don't need to "fully modify" anything, necessarily, to get it to go down the road, drive decent, and be perfectly safe at elevated highway speeds. Auto-X? That may be a different matter.
 
No, not "fully modified." Just rebuilt with good ball joints, tie rod ends, bushings. "We" drove these girls hundreds of thousands of miles. My old 70RR had over 140K on the clock when I sold it, with one front end rebuild. Admittedly, it had the best T bars the factory had, but nothing else was "modified" or aftermarket.

Even so, that old girl would handle circles around most any "family sedan" of the era

MY point is you don't need to "fully modify" anything, necessarily, to get it to go down the road, drive decent, and be perfectly safe at elevated highway speeds. Auto-X? That may be a different matter.
Again, this is not the topic. The steering on these cars was poor when new and worse with wear.
 
Again, this is not the topic. The steering on these cars was poor when new and worse with wear.

Sorry, but that’s just not the case regarding the steering when new.

The steering on these cars was not poor when new. Different than what you get with a modern rack and pinion arrangement? Absolutely. But they went straight down the road and could be easily steered and controlled.

You can argue that the overboosted power steering isn’t the greatest feel, but it doesn’t mean the steering is poor.

You can argue that the 24:1 manual steering takes too many turns because they wanted a lighter steering feel, but that’s not poor steering.

And you can argue that the worm and sector steering box creates a little bit of an on center dead spot, which is true even of the Borgeson box, but again, that’s not poor steering.

Can you get better steering out of these cars by running better alignment specs? You sure can. Can you improve the response with upgraded modern steering and suspension components?absolutely. But if the steering is sloppy, or erratic, or dangerous- it’s a problem with the condition of the components, not the design.
 
All I know is I've seen with my own good one eye Mopars of the era we're talkin about do purt near every kinda motorsport there is and do a GOOD job of it using the stock format. There are Mopars running 7 second quarter mile times on leaf springs. Our own @autoxcuda does auto cross and I'm pretty sure his car still retains the stock format. He's very competitive. Even though I've been out of that loop for years now, I still know people running Mopars on the dirt circuit using the stock Mopar format and they do quite well. I don't think any car that had "poor steering" would do any of that. That said, I'm not a suspension expert, either......but I did do alignment and suspension work in most every dealership and a lot of independent shops in Macon for almost thirty years.
 
If the Pittman and idler arm are good... outside of the tie rods and or any steering shaft coupler issues...the steering box is probably worn out.
 
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