Small Block Weiand Action+ vs. Edelbrock RPM Air Gap ET/MPH Comparo

Fuel and Air Systems

  1. 12many

    12many Well-Known Member

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    Looking to sneak into the 11's and break the 108+ mph barrier with my 410 stroker A100 (brick wall, barn door, chest freezer?) before winter hibernation and some new year plans. Link below of build, trials etc if of any interest vs. posting a novel here: 408 Stroker Short Block Details: Blueprint Engines Swapping out a highly worked over Weiand Action+ for an untouched (for now) Air Gap for some end of season runs, as of now its pretty much maxed out running an average of 12.24@ 107.5mph (1.68 60', 4.92 330', 7.69 1/8, 12.19 1/4 bests) after much tweaking and testing. Will adjust jetting as needed, everything else will remain the same. I have my doubts, but then again.....what improvements in various times do you think I'll see? Predictions? Should be at the 1/4 mile in a couple weeks:)

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    • missing linc

      missing linc Loose nut behind the wheel FABO Gold Member

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      No predictions, but will be interested to see the results!
       
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      • yellow rose

        yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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        It may not seem like it at first, but when you look at the two intakes side by side, and look very close, you'll see some interesting differences in philosophy of which side feeds what cylinders.

        The question is...does it matter? Answer...I have no idea. I've never tested between two intakes like that.

        This should be very interesting.
         
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        • Garrett Ellison

          Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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          Good comparison. The hogged put Weiand will probably flow more overall, but according to Hughes engines, part of the eddy’s intake advantage is flow port to port is very close with very low scatter numbers. I would personally like to see how a good single plane like an early Weiand 7510 or 7545 Xcellerator would compare. Several folks have gone faster with a single plane in lighter vehicles that have deep gears and large camshafts. It would be interesting to see if it would be of benefit with that much weight and wind resistance.
           
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          • rumblefish360

            rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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            The only other person I know of that did an A-B test (*I Think*) of these intakes is Locomotion on his race car in a crate motor class. He ET’s better with the Weiand. IIRC. And as he would say, “For MY combo....”

            @Locomotion
             
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            • 12many

              12many Well-Known Member

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              I'm thinking I will see some improvements in the midrange for sure , and perhaps a little more at the top end? Obviously hope so! This setup is hindered by among various other things the 1.92 intake valves, the cam being small, and that I'm running 1-5/8" headers. I debated bolting on the M1 I reworked, but am saving that for later as over winter I'll be sliding in a couple steps bigger cam, bigger valves, related head work, slight bump up in compression and looser converter. All else (drivetrain, chassis, weight) will remain the same, headers included. Goal is to have a solidly in the 11's at over 110 mph street/strip deal. Any quicker or faster I'll have to look into something better suited.
               
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              • Fisher

                Fisher Old Guy with a Cool car.

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                local engine builder had spun both intakes out of the box on the dyno on the same combos and has made more power with the Eddy intake every time. I have seen some stuff make more power on the dyno, yet the other combo got down the track better faster etc. Just goes to show you never know till you go to the track.
                 
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                • pishta

                  pishta I know I'm right....

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                  Eddy RPM AG vs Holley Strip Dominator? Can't beat the look of a SD or an X-celerator
                   
                • Locomotion

                  Locomotion Well-Known Member

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                  Actually it was a Weiand Stealth vs a Holley Strip Dominator, both with a 2" 4-hole spacer, tested on the same day. The Holley was faster. But I had much more cam duration, converter and gear. While trying to optimize the Stealth, I found that the deeper plenum side liked 2-3 numbers bigger jets (or leaner on the shallow side)! It may have helped .05. I noticed the plug coloring pattern when I had all the plugs in order in a holder. The coloring difference coincided with the side being fed from. I don't know if it's the same for all dual planes.
                   
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                  • 12many

                    12many Well-Known Member

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                    Got the Air Gap installed and all ready for the strip. The Weiand has that handy threaded tower to mount a simple l-bracket for a throttle setup while withe the AG you either buy a bracket or have to get creative (in my case) Initial carb setting only required turning the 4 corner idle mixture screws in about an 1/8 turn, didnt have to touch the secondary idle speed screw, haven't done plug chops, but using my wideband not much has changed, mostly richer by a tenth or two. Went for a couple shakedown runs, "I think it feels" stronger especially off the line thru the midrange as it pulls hard to a 6000 shift point. Sitting over the front wheels of this van you can really feel when the front lifts. Lift and forward thust feels better. Could be wishful thinking but we'll soon see..

                    IMG_20191106_155705.jpg
                     
                    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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                    • rumblefish360

                      rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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                      Oooo, I like the bracket!
                      You made that?
                      Nice!
                       
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                      • 12many

                        12many Well-Known Member

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                        Yup, I've given up looking for stuff that'll straight bolt-on to my van as there's no such thing. Gotta spend half a day in the garage improvising and trial and erroring for what I need!
                         
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                        • rumblefish360

                          rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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                          Canyou fit a spacer under the carb with what ever room you have under the engine cover?
                          I think, IMO, the RPM-AG is going to like it. I wouldn't touch the plenum, just port match the runners at the head as deep as I could go.
                           
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                          • 12many

                            12many Well-Known Member

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                            Luckily the intake carb height is close to the Weiand and the M1 single so I can swap out etc and my airbox stays lined up with the air intake opening. But there's no room for any spacer. I do have the Holley fiber heat sheild that is approx 3/16 thick, it was originally four holed but I opened it up. This winter when I'm doing some changes I may look into modifying/changing the engine mount biscuits so I can drop the engine some. Then I can play with carb spacers etc. I'm not cutting down the divider but doing the runners like you say would be it for mods.
                             
                          • Garrett Ellison

                            Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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                            Just curious what spacer (square opening, divided center, four hole, super sucker) you prefer for the rpm manifold and how thick.
                             
                          • rumblefish360

                            rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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                            @Garrett Ellison Edited post...


                            What ever the engine likes for the parameters of the build and/or for the duty it is to be performed in.

                            Im sure that really didn’t help you in a decision to your specific (and possibly future or current) combo in the search for what your looking for. Honestly, you will need to experiment. Open and four whole spaces are cheap. Supersuckers get pricey. If you know someone who will let you borrow one, go and get it and give it a whirl.
                             
                            Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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                            • Garrett Ellison

                              Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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                              Understood! I interpreted it that there may have been a known setup that makes the RPM work better for every combination (speed secret, lol!) but it makes more sense for it to be combination specific. In a lighter car, lower gears and a larger cam would tend to work better with more plenum volume and heavier vehicles would benefit from cleaning up or increasing velocity of the low rpm airflow.
                               
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                              • 12many

                                12many Well-Known Member

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                                Results after first run down the 1/8 today. Sunshine and about 56° Looking at the right column: Best times everywhere, mph about the same. Likely can do better, converted to the 1/4 with about a 1.58 conversion factor is 12.08. Looking for some good backup runs for sure, second run was basically a duplicate, with ever so slight better 60' and 330' times, but mildly happy to say the least! IMG_20191117_132301.jpg

                                IMG_20191117_150033.jpg
                                 
                                Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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                                • Garrett Ellison

                                  Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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                                  Good info! That and the seat of the pants feel shows how good of an intake that is for hot street combination.
                                   
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                                  • missing linc

                                    missing linc Loose nut behind the wheel FABO Gold Member

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                                    Nice, now if you are planning to massage that Air Gap, you should see more gains. Great job
                                     
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                                    • 12many

                                      12many Well-Known Member

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                                      Last month prior to the intake change it ran 7.76 @ 87.35 which was my best first run "off the towbar" With no other changes but for the intake and an idle mixture tweak with pretty much the same air temps, now the new "off the towbar" run of 7.65 @ 88.7 and a duplicate also being bests....I will do some runner work down the road for sure, but for now hopefully hit the 1/4 next Saturday for a last of they year blast!
                                       
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                                      • Garrett Ellison

                                        Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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                                        Probably another .05-.10 in it once you get the jetting set. FWIW in the land of inter web misinformation, I’ve read that milling the plenum divider 1/3 of an inch from the floor, putting a one inch open spacer on and port matching a performer RPM is worth around 14 average hp from 3000 on up at the crank on the dyno. I myself would be weary about doing any more than that without a flow bench, Edelbrock actually did put a monumental level of R&D into those intakes. With the vehicle weight and wind resistance, I would think that a short height super sucker would be better than an open spacer. I trust a dragstrip a lot more than a dyno.
                                         
                                      • 12many

                                        12many Well-Known Member

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                                        Im pretty sure I mentioned in my BP short block thread about my unique setup and lack of room to try carb spacers, (which sure would be nice if I could!) which is why I went through stages of cutting down the divider of the Weiand, where I actually saw improvements each time. Increasing the plenum volume via spacers isn't something I've been able to experiment with due to the previously mentioned engine cover. I could just leave the cover raised some and do the spacer thing, but as with removing various things like gutting west coast mirrors, passenger seat assembly, heater box, swapping alloy bumper brackets and glass bumpers etc I just don't wanna do that, those streeter items have to stay. I could, and I know I'd make the gains I'm after, but I want to do it on engine alone keeping this thing intact. Doing all that weight removal, for me, is akin to just adding nitrous:eek:....no offense to huffers! :rofl:
                                         
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                                        • Garrett Ellison

                                          Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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                                          That does sound like a sweet ride, love to see some more pics. I’m curious how a ported Holley Street Dominator would work out on it. Or a new type Weiand 7510 with the down sized plenum if it would clear.
                                           
                                        • missing linc

                                          missing linc Loose nut behind the wheel FABO Gold Member

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                                          I can appreciate not wanting to gut everything in the name of dropping a few pounds of weight. I have always preferred to keep my cars streetable and safe.
                                          Considering your description of a flying brick, aerodynamically speaking, all the more impressive.
                                           
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