solid roller cam button / timing cover questions HELP

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supersonictoys

supersonictoys

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So I have a 500 inch 440 in a 65 dart tube chassis car and it was a mild supercharged build with eddy rpm heads and a fairly small solid flat tappet cam and I'm in the middle of converting it to a hotter build with Victor maxwedge cnc ported heads and a big solid ROLLER cam. I thought I had everything here to do the job but a buddy informed me that with a Roller cam I would have to run a cam button to keep the cam from trying to move forward in the block. He was a Chevy guy so he couldn't help me with the particulars but I guess Chevy have the same issue when using a roller cam. I have searched the Internet and read everything I can find on cam buttons and timing covers and fully understand why a button is needed . I have read that there is enough forward force from the cam to possibly flex a steel timing cover outward and in doing so the ignition timing can be affected. I have also read that some people weld a plate or washer to the outside of the timing cover I guess to take up the space between the cover and the back of the water pump to keep this flex from happening. I am also seeing nylon buttons, aluminum buttons and roller steel buttons and some look like they have a plate to hold them in the front of the cam and others dont. A metal bushing against a metal timing cover doesn't sound like the best idea to me either. And is the forward force of the cam coming from the drive gear for the oil pump? And can a high volume/pressure pump add more forward force than a stock pump? This is probably a way simpler issue than I am thinking it is but I have never done a big block Mopar before and want to do it right the first time. Couldn't think of a better place than right here to ask. What's the best button to run? Do I need something to hold this button in? Do the cam bolts need a retainer with bend over tabs to help retain them? What cover should I run ? Do I need a billet $350 cover or should I just run a stamped steel? And how about this, why did my new comp cams roller cam come with 3/8 fine thread on the three cam gear bolt holes when every other Mopar cam manufacturer only offers 3/8 course.... sorry to go on like this but these are my concerns. Thanks for any help
 
People have been solving that problem for many, many years. For a street type car I use a billet timing cover with the removable center section. That design is easy to set up and easy to adjust and is very rigid. For a race engine I use a Jesel belt drive.

If this is your first big block engine you might want to spend $20 on the book I wrote called "how to build max performance Mopar big blocks". It should answer most or all of your questions.
 

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At one time I had searched all over Milodon's website for the reinforced timing cover for the big block Mopar's, they are not there and the one posted above for the 440 by SEbiscut isn't reinforced.

Andy's cover shown above is the best I've found. My other two choices would be,

http://www.manciniracing.com/inbhecaaltic.html

http://store.440source.com/Fabricated-Aluminum-Timing-Cover/productinfo/200-1089/

AREngineering's cover and the 440 Source cover do not require water pump housing spacers.

The cam bolt thing is just something weird that happens with Comp Cams sometimes. I got one like that with the fine threads, every other 3-bolt cam has been 3/8-16.
 
IQ52 said:
At one time I had searched all over Milodon's website for the reinforced timing cover for the big block Mopar's, they are not there and the one posted above for the 440 by SEbiscut isn't reinforced.

Andy's cover shown above is the best I've found. My other two choices would be,

http://www.manciniracing.com/inbhecaaltic.html

http://store.440source.com/Fabricated-Aluminum-Timing-Cover/productinfo/200-1089/

AREngineering's cover and the 440 Source cover do not require water pump housing spacers.

The cam bolt thing is just something weird that happens with Comp Cams sometimes. I got one like that with the fine threads, every other 3-bolt cam has been 3/8-16.
Click to expand...

you can reinforce a stock cover very easily. an alum. or nylon button machined for the correct clearance will work fine. usually about .008 plus or minus a hair will work on about anything, 426 hemi-440-406 sbc-383-sbc350 sbc.
 
AndyF said:
People have been solving that problem for many, many years. For a street type car I use a billet timing cover with the removable center section. That design is easy to set up and easy to adjust and is very rigid. For a race engine I use a Jesel belt drive.

If this is your first big block engine you might want to spend $20 on the book I wrote called "how to build max performance Mopar big blocks". It should answer most or all of your questions.
Click to expand...

Where is this cover available?
 
I have run the nylon button with a washer tack welded to the outside of the cover with no issues for years. At the time of my build there wasn't many affordable alternatives to the washer out there.
 
Well I read that the mild on cover is 90 thousands thick and will not flex. I ordered one so we will see when it gets here tomorrow. As for my fine threaded cam gear bolt holes, it doesn't really matter because I'm sending the piece of **** back. Ordered 114 lobe center and after we degreed it , it's ground 118. Ordering from someone else...
 
This is what it says on summit racing about the Milodon cover...
Description: Swap out your leaky stock timing chain cover with one of these stylish, high-quality Milodon steel timing covers. Each cover is precision-checked for the proper placement of the seal and dowel pins to avoid leaks and ensure an exact fit. They come in your choice of gold or chrome finishes and are built tough to withstand severe cam loads. The covers are also available in a reinforced cam thrust model that features a .090 in. thick wear plate welded into place. This provides a positive cam stop and stiffens the covers to stand up to severe cam loads. When using a cam button with these reinforced thrust model covers, the short, late model style cam button must be used.

Even though they advertise this cover as being " built tough to withstand severe cam loads" which I can only assume means forward thrust, I am beginning to have my doubts. It also says comes in gold and chrome but it actually only comes in gold and black for mopar. I have a feeling this description for the cover is a generic Milodon timing cover write up that was probably copy and pasted from a random Milodon wesite description that could have been for a Chevy or any other make of cover. When it gets here today, if it's a thin piece of cap cover that is no better than any other stamped steel cover I will send it back. Wish I could see a photo of a cover that someone has reinforced with a washer so I could understand better what you are talking about.
 
supersonictoys said:
This is what it says on summit racing about the Milodon cover...
Description: Swap out your leaky stock timing chain cover with one of these stylish, high-quality Milodon steel timing covers. Each cover is precision-checked for the proper placement of the seal and dowel pins to avoid leaks and ensure an exact fit. They come in your choice of gold or chrome finishes and are built tough to withstand severe cam loads. The covers are also available in a reinforced cam thrust model that features a .090 in. thick wear plate welded into place. This provides a positive cam stop and stiffens the covers to stand up to severe cam loads. When using a cam button with these reinforced thrust model covers, the short, late model style cam button must be used.

Even though they advertise this cover as being " built tough to withstand severe cam loads" which I can only assume means forward thrust, I am beginning to have my doubts. It also says comes in gold and chrome but it actually only comes in gold and black for mopar. I have a feeling this description for the cover is a generic Milodon timing cover write up that was probably copy and pasted from a random Milodon wesite description that could have been for a Chevy or any other make of cover. When it gets here today, if it's a thin piece of cap cover that is no better than any other stamped steel cover I will send it back. Wish I could see a photo of a cover that someone has reinforced with a washer so I could understand better what you are talking about.
Click to expand...




What did you end up using for the cover?
 
supersonictoys said:
This is what it says on summit racing about the Milodon cover...
Description: Swap out your leaky stock timing chain cover with one of these stylish, high-quality Milodon steel timing covers. Each cover is precision-checked for the proper placement of the seal and dowel pins to avoid leaks and ensure an exact fit. They come in your choice of gold or chrome finishes and are built tough to withstand severe cam loads. The covers are also available in a reinforced cam thrust model that features a .090 in. thick wear plate welded into place. This provides a positive cam stop and stiffens the covers to stand up to severe cam loads. When using a cam button with these reinforced thrust model covers, the short, late model style cam button must be used.

Even though they advertise this cover as being " built tough to withstand severe cam loads" which I can only assume means forward thrust, I am beginning to have my doubts. It also says comes in gold and chrome but it actually only comes in gold and black for mopar. I have a feeling this description for the cover is a generic Milodon timing cover write up that was probably copy and pasted from a random Milodon wesite description that could have been for a Chevy or any other make of cover. When it gets here today, if it's a thin piece of cap cover that is no better than any other stamped steel cover I will send it back. Wish I could see a photo of a cover that someone has reinforced with a washer so I could understand better what you are talking about.
Click to expand...

All u have to do is weld a washer inside the cover , where the cam button will be off center of the washer , grind welds smooth . I used a stainless steel washer.
A nylon button has held up very well on all my roller cammed engines, the metal one was too big a pain in the as for my 505 it seemed.
You can even shim between the back of the water pump by doing some rigging. I have even seen people weld a nut on the back , so they can screw a bolt in or out to push against the timing cover >> way old trick that takes some rigging ..
 
I got the Procomp/Speedmaster 2 piece aluminum T cover for my build. The whole front comes off to allow u to remove the T chain and gears if need be. It looks pretty stout. I have a cam button from 440 Source. Kim
 
oldkimmer said:
I got the Procomp/Speedmaster 2 piece aluminum T cover for my build. The whole front comes off to allow u to remove the T chain and gears if need be. It looks pretty stout. I have a cam button from 440 Source. Kim
Click to expand...

Does it leak oil ??

Did u ever get around and look at that big block pump pulley to measure it ??
Need a single groove 2 3/8'' deep , ''front to back'' , smaller than 6 15/16'' ----------------
 
DSCF0234.JPG
the 440Source cover will get it done. Hey bob I have a pulley that I will measure in a day or 2 (I should be able to find it)
DSCF0234.JPG
 
I don’t know if it will leak as I haven’t started to put it together. It has an O ring in between the halves. No hurry now as the race season is cancelled for the year. I measured a bunch of pulleys, I’m pretty sure I have what u need check back in our p/ms. Kim
 
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