SS/B and SS/A Chassis and Suspension

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SSing

SSing

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Well I´m not the only one who is interested in these cars… The 1968 Hemi Barracudas and Darts i.e. and maybe this subject would interest a few more.

#1 When was the first year, or surly it must have been one particular race, when a team or a racer showed up with some sort of added device to the original rear leaf spring suspension. It may also of cause have been, that in between seasons new technology was adapted to a number of these cars.

#2 What was the record with standard only rear leaf spring suspension. With or other than original rear stock shock absorber.

#3 What shock absorber came with the cars, and were these used, or were there other popular shocks used. Of cause not all teams or racers used the same brand or type shock. But some collaborations on this, would be interesting.

#4 Chassis. When was a Roll Bar, sub frame connectors or any other work done to help strengthen chassis and body.

I have some more that I would like to know, but let´s see if this is of interest for anyone else…

Than You, Stefan
 
SSing said:
Well I´m not the only one who is interested in these cars… The 1968 Hemi Barracudas and Darts i.e. and maybe this subject would interest a few more.

#1 When was the first year, or surly it must have been one particular race, when a team or a racer showed up with some sort of added device to the original rear leaf spring suspension. It may also of cause have been, that in between seasons new technology was adapted to a number of these cars.

#2 What was the record with standard only rear leaf spring suspension. With or other than original rear stock shock absorber.

#3 What shock absorber came with the cars, and were these used, or were there other popular shocks used. Of cause not all teams or racers used the same brand or type shock. But some collaborations on this, would be interesting.

#4 Chassis. When was a Roll Bar, sub frame connectors or any other work done to help strengthen chassis and body.

I have some more that I would like to know, but let´s see if this is of interest for anyone else…

Than You, Stefan
Click to expand...


Stefan,

Please note that the sanctioning bodies (NHRA, IHRA and AHRA) kept a tight reign on the S/S car rules and still do today It wasn't until the mid 70's that the rules were relaxed so it's a sure bet the suspensions were "improved" shortly after the rules changes and continued as the ET's dropped. I'm sure if a racer was "creative" he wasn't going to advertise. The AH cars of today run on the ragged edge of poor handling as seen by the number of on-track incidents in 2015.


The LO / BO cars were delivered to Hurst with cheap OEM shocks. Hurst installed the longer heavy duty shocks . I do not know what brand they were but there weren't many shock makers at the time to choose.

Roll bars and frame connectors were added by the new owners to meet tech (safety) requirements. I'm not sure when torque boxes were first put into play.

As far as the record on a stock suspension I don't think anyone noted the record or cared to at the time. The LO and BO cars were delivered from Hurst with SS spring and HD shocks so technically they weren't "stock" to begin with.

For what it's worth: I had a 10.50 car on 3000 lb SS springs, HD Drag shocks, 3 inch inboard spring relocation, and a mini tub. I decided to move up an index to 10.0 and it was a handful on the launch. I also broke the 8 3/4. I found 10.0 secs. to be my limit, and quickly changed to a 4 link, coil-overs, and a DANA 60. The changes made the car fun to drive again and more consistent.


I hope this helps.

:glasses7:
 
No changes or traction devices were allowed to the suspensions.
Not only did the nhra rules enforce this Chrysler would drop any support
with their information or parts if you went rouge or raced your car in another class.
The cars purpose was to dominate SS/B and SS/BA.
Chrysler went as far as quietly making sure who set what records and when as the cars were
being introduced. Their teams worked for them.
The cars came with glass packs and even these were not allowed to be removed at some tracks at first.
Some racers carried the pipes down the track unhooked from the headers by slipping them over the torsion bar socket.
For 1969 NHRA moved the cars up to the top class SS/A .
By 1970 some darts moved over to the new pro stock class with body year updates. This came with a different set of rules. The body couldn't be over two years old. The barracuda had to be the new E-body for this new class and some 68s went to modified production where it fit in.
Pro stock is where you begin to start seeing traction control added to rear leaf springs.
Oil pans was a required change by the racer when they received their car since they didn't
come with a deep sump pan. So this is an area you see variation from the start.
Milodon and Lee Smith came up with the external oil pickups in 1969. You also see some
bolt in three point roll bars showing up in some cars at this time.
Cool cans and signal stat mechanical rev limiters were also popular.
Jones or Stewart Warner cable drive tachometers also were added by owners.
Sox and Martin used Stewart Warner gauges.
 
only a handful of 68 darts was reskinned to 1970 body styles,but later they was reskiined back to 68,heres a few pics
 

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68 darts and cudas exhaust,just recent on ebay,someone had just the exhaust and not headers for sale for 3000.00,it sold for 4450.00
 

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440outlawdart said:
68 darts and cudas exhaust,just recent on ebay,someone had just the exhaust and not headers for sale for 3000.00,it sold for 4450.00
Click to expand...
way.way
back then chrysler recommended imperial shocks for the s.s. springs.
 
I was going to say I think they were C body shocks... Also - the SS package was developed years earlier when the Max Wedge cars were being developed. There wasn't much "new" or "secret", it was just putting it all into a package IMO that made the '68s really badass. The best engine, the most scienced chassis and body tricks, and all right off the trailer is what made them great.
 
Have an article on Tony Nancy dragster with a 426 hemi. It runs an external oil pickup line. This is dated to 1965. Also shows the Milodon oil system with external lines as a kit. 1965. Them boys were on it pronto!
 
Thank you all guys.
If I sum this up, nothing was done to the rear suspension on the SS-cars in´68-´69 and ´70 to start with. For the chassis three point stated to show in´69.
Now I still like to think that at one particular race, probably a number of cars showed up with some major changes done to them. I know Ron Butler was one who updated the chassis on some of these cars, but this was done a few years ahead.
First step may have been to move the rear spring in to the frame rail. Maybe also at this stage, sub frame connectors were added and a roll cage. This may have occurred in Super Stock in 1972 when NHRA allowed a full roll cage tube frame construction in Pro Stock...

Question:
Well this is a very big subject, so lets go back to my main question. How fast did the SS Barracudas and Darts go with stock, as delivered suspension i.e. But than again of cause we need to state the year and race when updates first showed up.

Reason:
The Mopar rear suspension seem very simple, but of cause is is a lot of calculation and testing behind. But it amazes me how fast (read traction) these cars could go with this simple set up, compared to how race cars are set up to day.

Thanks again guys
Stefan
 
I believe that roll cages became mandatory somewhere in the 70s after a bad crash by I think Ron Mancini that tore up the car, I think a Dart, pretty good. The rule was enacted for the top SS classes, A thru E, because they were starting to go pretty fast by that time.
 
these are the type of roll bars they had back then,belive lakewood made them
 

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So what do you guys get out of this video... at 3.40 Dave Christie of the Sox&Martin Team, about the rear suspension...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NudsCxWxZ6w"]History of Super Stock - 68 onwards - YouTube[/ame]

To me it appears as if this was done for the 1972 season... I dono...
 
The leaf/link set-up is pretty common in lower cost S/ST & S/G cars today & many companies sell kits for it. The reason is simple--they're cheap & they work. While not a multi-adjustable 4-link system, they offer the racer some flexibility yet still retain the simplicity non-travelling racers like. I had the set-up on a 3800lb S/ST car & it would 60-foot as well as any S/G car.
Actually, if you look at a CalTracs set-up it's very similar & guys are running 8s with the set-up.
A lot of old restored S/S cars have retained this set-up & you'll see quite a few making exhibition passes with them.
As to the old, original rear suspension set-up----IIRC the cars used shocks from an Imperial as the heavier cars made for stiffer valving in the shocks & they had more travel. The rearend set-up, I'm told, was good fro about 600-650 hp before you had to supplement it. The old Lakewood 3-point rollbars were good until around 1975 or so as myself & a lot of friends had them in our 11-12 second cars. And actually you'll find pictures of Ronnie Sox running his S/S 'cuda in the early days with NO rollbar. I don't know about that, but it shows the factory gave you a bare bones racer---how you outfitted it was pretty much left to your own creativity. I know of one S/S racer that had 100lb A100 seats in his car!
 
hemicop said:
The leaf/link set-up is pretty common in lower cost S/ST & S/G cars today & many companies sell kits for it. The reason is simple--they're cheap & they work. While not a multi-adjustable 4-link system, they offer the racer some flexibility yet still retain the simplicity non-travelling racers like. I had the set-up on a 3800lb S/ST car & it would 60-foot as well as any S/G car.
Actually, if you look at a CalTracs set-up it's very similar & guys are running 8s with the set-up.
A lot of old restored S/S cars have retained this set-up & you'll see quite a few making exhibition passes with them.
As to the old, original rear suspension set-up----IIRC the cars used shocks from an Imperial as the heavier cars made for stiffer valving in the shocks & they had more travel. The rearend set-up, I'm told, was good fro about 600-650 hp before you had to supplement it. The old Lakewood 3-point rollbars were good until around 1975 or so as myself & a lot of friends had them in our 11-12 second cars. And actually you'll find pictures of Ronnie Sox running his S/S 'cuda in the early days with NO rollbar. I don't know about that, but it shows the factory gave you a bare bones racer---how you outfitted it was pretty much left to your own creativity. I know of one S/S racer that had 100lb A100 seats in his car!
Click to expand...


Thank you hemicop, always interesting to hear first hand info... I can´t let go though, of the thought that at some race, these cars showed up with a lot of new stuff done to them. Springs moved in under frame rails, leaf link and wider wheels and tires. Till someone one prove me wrong, I like to believe this was at the first race in 1972??

May be this is one of the secrets the real in deep hard core guys keep to themselves. I have asked questions before, on other subjects, on other threads, and getting no respond, which is quite embarrassing. But I´m learning what you can ask about and what to keep your nose away from :)

Anyway... thank you all on this thread for adding to my knowledge about the ´68 SS Barracuda`s and Dart´s, and consider the this tread ended.

Thank You
Stefan
 
Stephan The Lakewood 3 point came out about 71-72.
I believe a lot of the reason you don't get a lot of response to some of these
questions is they are hard to answer as many of us are to young to have been there
at the time.
Many of the restored cars that you see photos of in modern print are painted
to a particular time but the parts on them don't always match that time. These cars were
constantly changing as they got faster or changed hands. It can be hard for a guy restoring
one of these cars as he may only working off a few photos that don't give up as many
details as needed.
Even if you have a car that has great photos still around it can be impossible to find a
part you see in a photo.
I myself never got to see these cars run till around 74 and by then they had changed
a good deal. We can study old photos but they don't always have the date they were taken
included.
I have collected old magazines and at least they have a month and year on the cover as
a time reference.
One you may be interested in I have was from 71 and Dick Landy does a good job
going over the suspension on his charger and dart. His was still very stock at that time.
Send me a PM with your e mail if you would like me to send this Landy interveiw your way.
Just keep digging and you will come to your own conclusions of what a car should be
at a certain point in time.
 
ssba said:
Stephan The Lakewood 3 point came out about 71-72.
I believe a lot of the reason you don't get a lot of response to some of these
questions is they are hard to answer as many of us are to young to have been there
at the time.
Many of the restored cars that you see photos of in modern print are painted
to a particular time but the parts on them don't always match that time. These cars were
constantly changing as they got faster or changed hands. It can be hard for a guy restoring
one of these cars as he may only working off a few photos that don't give up as many
details as needed.
Even if you have a car that has great photos still around it can be impossible to find a
part you see in a photo.
I myself never got to see these cars run till around 74 and by then they had changed
a good deal. We can study old photos but they don't always have the date they were taken
included.
I have collected old magazines and at least they have a month and year on the cover as
a time reference.
One you may be interested in I have was from 71 and Dick Landy does a good job
going over the suspension on his charger and dart. His was still very stock at that time.
Send me a PM with your e mail if you would like me to send this Landy interveiw your way.
Just keep digging and you will come to your own conclusions of what a car should be
at a certain point in time.
Click to expand...

neat thread ! I remember this stuff well. I never had any hero`s, but Sox and Tom Hoover were as close as they come !!
 
Stefan, to continue on with the "old S/S cars versus the "newer"/restored cars-----"ssba" & "famous bob" are 100% right! These cars were constantly upgraded & remember this was an era when factory racecars & technology were progressing at an alarming rate! Not to mention it wasn't uncommon to see these cars run anywhere from P/S to A/MP , a now non-existant class, to one of the Gas (ser)classes. As to some of the "tricks":
I already mentioned the heavyweight A100 seats. You can go on "classracer.com" and hear of some of the things guys do for Stock & S/S . The REAL dark secrets you'll never hear about but it'll give you some idea. Besides acid dipping guys would mix metal filings into the paint when painting fiberglass parts so if a magnet was run over the light piece it would give the appearance of metal. Strategically placed vacuum "leaks" allowed engines to get more air without being obvious. Lightweight (titanium)bolts any & everywhere weren't & still aren't uncommon. Lead-lined rear bumpers, minimum thickness rollbar pieces in non-essential areas are still used and if you were connected to the factory well enough it wasn't impossible to get the more major parts cast with legal part numbers even though the part wasn't technically legal. These were just some of the "funny business" that went on & still does in S/S.
 
Yes, thank you. This info is interesting...
But I'm hung up on the rear springs. The way I see it, to move them under the frame rails, had to be sanctioned by NHRA. I suppose this association was biggest and may be lead the development so to speak... It is not likely one guy showed up with this done, 10" wheels and muck bigger slicks, if it wasn´t ok to do it.

When it comes to different ways to tweak the rules, I hope someone start a thread on this subject. :)

About the Lakewood, I have seen a sturdy roll bar, 4 maybe 6 point from 1969 in a SS/B Dart, so like with most thing, I suppose there was always exceptions to the rules...

I think 1971 must have been the year when new rules came in play. (rear suspension)
If I only had the time, I would try NHRA or may be Cragar, since every Super Stocker all of a sudden had them new Super Trick Wheels. Sometime 1971-72 wasn´t it?

To my project this isn´t important, since in 1969 everything still was original on these cars
It is the history I guess that interest me.

Initial question was: how fast did these cars go in there original form, when it comes to the rear suspension and tires...

Thank You all who contribute to the thread
Stefan
 
Like mentioned, the S/S were pretty straightforward, not a lot of modifications allowed until they morphed into Pro Stock. I know that some of the '73 P/S cars had the front control arms turned around to alter the geometry. They got pretty low around when Jenkins developed the strut front end.

Read up on the Missle here, should give you a decent idea of where they ended up a few years later.
 
Frame connectors are an interesting point. I am not sure when they started getting installed but I don't believe the original cars had them? Not sure on that though. I've read where the body panels were all out of whack and quarter panels were buckling without them though.

Who knows what the records were with a certain chassis type setup. The factory parts probably worked to a point, perhaps into the low 10s? Once they were in the 9s and over 135-140 or so the factory stuff was no longer viable.

I know you are asking about the S/S cars but it's insightful to consider how much these cars evolved in such a short period of time after their initial debut. The original S/S chassis is a curious thing to consider because the changes came so rapidly. The early Pro Stocks were bodies in white that were built by pro chassis shops like Butera who built funny cars etc.

To me, that means that teams found the limits of the rudimentary factory-style suspensions pretty quickly. To be competitive, they needed to step up their chassis game and go beyond the passenger car designs.

Also, reducing weight was a top priority, which is less about specific 'parts' per-SE but more of a philosophy.
 
But it was NHRA who sat the rules, right... and from the beginning this cars were like stock 383 cars, and you couldn´t change any to the chassis and suspension. Than safety became an issue I guess... May be a roll bar was mandatory, may be in´72 and frame connectors to tie things together... maybe this was in 1972 when NHRA allowed a full roll cage tube frame construction in Pro Stock... till than these SS-cars that ran PS in 1970 and 71 I suppose, did so pretty much as Super Stockers...

It is this brake point that interest me. When these Hemi Super Stockers no longer were "stock".
No, no frame connectors on the Hurst cars when delivered.
 
From looking at old photo's the Prostock class new for 70 the cars were modified
heavily from the beginning of the class. All the tricks you are asking about and more.
The SS cars that remained in Super Stock were left alone at least up till 71 from what I
have seen or have proof of in old publications.
It may help to get a nhra rule book for the age you are wanting to know about.
As you know I am building my project to the 73-74 racing years.
This is what the 1973 nhra rule book states about roll bars in the super stock class:
Required in ALL convertibles in Super Stock classes.
Recommended in all Super Stocks.
Roll cages permitted in Super Stock provided additional frame members or cross
members are not utilized.

For 1974 the rules are the same as 73 with exception of the (provided additional frame
members or cross members are not utilized) was not included.
So It reads to me frame connectors were first allowed in Super Stock for the 74 season.
 
ssba said:
From looking at old photo's the Prostock class new for 70 the cars were modified
heavily from the beginning of the class. All the tricks you are asking about and more.
The SS cars that remained in Super Stock were left alone at least up till 71 from what I
have seen or have proof of in old publications.
It may help to get a nhra rule book for the age you are wanting to know about.
As you know I am building my project to the 73-74 racing years.
This is what the 1973 nhra rule book states about roll bars in the super stock class:
Required in ALL convertibles in Super Stock classes.
Recommended in all Super Stocks.
Roll cages permitted in Super Stock provided additional frame members or cross
members are not utilized.

For 1974 the rules are the same as 73 with exception of the (provided additional frame
members or cross members are not utilized) was not included.
So It reads to me frame connectors were first allowed in Super Stock for the 74 season.
Click to expand...

Thanks ssba, this is concrete info. Now we know about the frame connectors. One question left only. What year were the cars allowed to run the springs under the frame rail, meaning bigger wheels and tires, meaning go faster...

Rule book... I thought about it too. I have one but not old enough. But rule books are on their way over, and should be here any time soon :)

Thanks
 
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