Stock stroke 360 on the dyno

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RAMM

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Just like the title says I'm just finishing up some winter warranty work on a stock stroke hi-perf 360. A little background first. This was an engine I built last summer for a customer, a young guy with a '73 Duster and a very tired 340 under the hood. He wanted a 500 hp small block and at first wanted a stroker but the budget said otherwise. In my experience a stroker bottom end adds anywhere from $1500.00-$2500.00 to any type of small block build. Add to that the cylinder heads that you really need to do justice to the cubes and it just becomes a lose-lose situation IMO. So what I did was build a nice solid 360 bottom end (Magnum block) with Icon flat tops, stock crank ground 10/10 and put the money where it counts--cam and induction. In went a custom Comp hydro-roller 242/244 108 .640" and on went EQ Magnum heads with what I would call a stage II port job. In the interest of keeping his stock hood an RPM Air-Gap went on top and a Holley 650 hp went on top of that. Now it's important to note that I never guaranteed that I would get him his "magical" 500 hp mark, but I did say I would get him close AND keep it civil. Dyno day comes in July and after a handful of pulls the engine is running really nicely and he has a REAL 475 ft/lb and 478 hp @ 6200rpm. I can tell he's bummed but I assure him that it will be more than enough for him for a long time. He takes it home and takes the car and the engine to some Mopar installation "guru" where the car sits in purgatory until late September. A week after he takes delivery of it he calls me up and says it smokes from the breathers like "I'm doing a burnout". I scratch my head and the only reasonable diagnosis I can come up with is a pushed head gasket. I tell him to bring it in and I'll fix it. He brings it in and I pop the intake off and take the heads off without touching the distributor--I love Mopars for that. Sure enough the head gasket is gone between 3 and 5. He claims he did nothing wrong of course and I ask if the timing was played with. He says no the distributor was not touched--I always make a mark on the housing and block when I find best timing and I can clearly see that it is more advanced then where I left it @ 35 degrees.

Now he says I can take as long as I want as he needs it for the spring so while I have the heads off I take this chance to improve them with some of the things I learned while doing the EQ's for my EMC 2011 360. Well there is a lot more to this story but I had the chance to dyno it today and I am impressed with these heads to say the least. Like I said earlier I did not touch the distributor from when I received it back--I fired it up and it ran real choppy and rough and when opening the throttle just a bit it seemed to labor and fight itself. Out comes the timing gun and guess what? I stopped reading it @ 65 degrees total--and that was not all in! I twist it back to my marks and the guns says 35 degrees!! Who knew?? The net result was 470 ft/lbs and 501hp @ 6200 rpm. You guys are the first to know, and did I mention that all I am charging him for are the Cometic head gaskets and the intake gaskets---Nothing else!! Oh I also forgot to mention that this kid takes every opportunity to trash me on Facebook. So now I'm a little worried now that I have put in gaskets that WON'T act like a fuse--I guess I'll hear about it when rods and pistons start flying. Thanks for the therapy--just thought you'd like the results--I do. J.Rob

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What was the total price to build a combo like this? This is just what i'm looking for.
 
Rob - The EQ heads are not my strongest point... What did you have to do to get that much lift in them?
Nice job on standing behind things and getting the number. It's never easy to stand behind things regardless of the situation.
 
Nice build and great job. If the guy was close, I would witness the install and initial firing. After that he's on his own. I'm surprised it even ran with that much timing. tmm
 
Just looked @ the dyno sheet. That thing is a torque monster. 450+ throught the range.
 
I like the results,Great job !
The less people know about what goes into designing and building motor the more they complain.Sounds like you are dealing with a spoiled brat and not so smart guy.
Good for you,not stooping to his level but even if you had a the lobotomy you would be smarter than him...
Hey,You got a link to the EQ's for my EMC 2011 360 ?
 
Man it's a wonder he didn't beat the bearings out and break pistons with that much timing in it. That's the bad part of being an engine builder. Your always the one to get blamed for everything bad that happens no matter who's fault it is.
 
Rob - The EQ heads are not my strongest point... What did you have to do to get that much lift in them?
Nice job on standing behind things and getting the number. It's never easy to stand behind things regardless of the situation.

Not your strongest point? I'm not sure what you mean-clarify please. As far as running that much lift it wasn't much harder than putting long valves for a Cleveland (yes that Cleveland) and machining the guide tops a little. I like lift--especially when the heads aren't unstable at high lifts.

And no it isn't easy standing behind things especially when I want to tear a strip off 'em .

Getting the number was a bit of a surprise seeing as how I used my electric water pump the first time and this time it was a nasty overdriven belt setup . I have seen 6-7 hp gain going to an electric on this kind of build J.Rob
 
Nice build and great job. If the guy was close, I would witness the install and initial firing. After that he's on his own. I'm surprised it even ran with that much timing. tmm

That is the purpose of testing on the dyno--to verify that all is well when it leaves. By rights I could have told him to pound sand. That's what some other engine builders with dyno's do around here.

It ran but not well with that much timing. It's the sure sign of a rookie--If it won't fire then twist the distributor till it does. J.Rob
 
Just looked @ the dyno sheet. That thing is a torque monster. 450+ throught the range.

This is one of the many great side effects of the EQ Magnums--you don't even have to consider torque-they just produce. Great-stable velocity and a great chamber. This is another reason I didn't feel he really NEEDED a stroker. Oh and I heard "through the grapevine" that on his one maiden voyage that he jabbed the throttle for a second or two and looped it and almost ditched it. He was "surprised" at how fast the rev's came up. Good thing he didn't have the rev limiter programmed into his 6AL-2 at the time huh? J.Rob
 
I like the results,Great job !
The less people know about what goes into designing and building motor the more they complain.Sounds like you are dealing with a spoiled brat and not so smart guy.
Good for you,not stooping to his level but even if you had a the lobotomy you would be smarter than him...
Hey,You got a link to the EQ's for my EMC 2011 360 ?

It's true, I really appreciate a customer that has some knowledge and is honest with themselves about what they want and expect.

I don't have a link to that EMC article yet as it hasn't been printed yet--but I will as soon as it's out. I've almost got my intake manifold testing done with that engine, can't wait to share the results, good or bad, I plan to learn something. J.Rob
 
Man it's a wonder he didn't beat the bearings out and break pistons with that much timing in it. That's the bad part of being an engine builder. Your always the one to get blamed for everything bad that happens no matter who's fault it is.


The reason nothing else broke was because the head gasket thankfully got out of a bad situation when it couldn't take anymore-lol. Now that I have put in some Cometics I will make it very clear that the warranty (implied or otherwise) expires the moment my shop door closes on his way out. At least these gaskets are .015" thicker than the ones replaced--small drop in compression makes me feel a little better, but then so does a couple of glasses o' Rye. J.Rob
 
Your always the one to get blamed for everything bad that happens no matter who's fault it is.

No kidding! Once-a customer I did an engine for blamed for a flat tire he got! I should've quit the trade right then. J.Rob
 
Nice to have you on board RAMM. We could always use another engine builder. Sounds like a strong 360 and that kid is a bone head.
 
The reason nothing else broke was because the head gasket thankfully got out of a bad situation when it couldn't take anymore-lol. Now that I have put in some Cometics I will make it very clear that the warranty (implied or otherwise) expires the moment my shop door closes on his way out. At least these gaskets are .015" thicker than the ones replaced--small drop in compression makes me feel a little better, but then so does a couple of glasses o' Rye. J.Rob

Yep, good thing it let go.

BTW: do you have the flow #'s on the heads handy? Just curious what your getting from them. I have a set on a 408 in my Cuda with a real mild Racer Brown solid. It's a real torque monster which I love in a 99% street driven car.
 
What was the total price to build a combo like this? This is just what i'm looking for.

I can actually look up the invoice but for now I can tell you that the customer supplied the block and carb, and valve covers. The bill was $6500 before taxes. I think--that is a realistic price that includes every little thing and there was a lot of freebies -like I powdercoated the valve covers, and I did not charge for all of the hours I had into it. The part that gets me is --prior to this he wanted to buy my W2 headed 367 from the EMC 2010 and I told him I wanted $9500.00 and he was OK with that (after he shopped around), but by the time he got back to me about 2 months later I had sold it. Then we start talking a Magnum headed build and I tell him it'll be much cheaper than that but not if we do a stroker. He didn't believe me and shopped around and I mean for several hundred miles around. Most shops didn't speak Mopar and most wouldn't even take his 340 apart for less than $500.00 He told me one shop wanted to do a solid roller deal and that the bill would be between 10k and up depending. As you can see he wound up with me ,although hindsight is 20/20. J.Rob
 
Yep, good thing it let go.

BTW: do you have the flow #'s on the heads handy? Just curious what your getting from them. I have a set on a 408 in my Cuda with a real mild Racer Brown solid. It's a real torque monster which I love in a 99% street driven car.

I'm actually starting to put very little stock in flow numbers these days. But flow observed on my SF-1020 was 263 cfm @ .500" with 267 cfm @ .600" and up. The exhausts always move 179-180 cfm with a pipe, and I say always because I don't do much with them. Oh and that was a 2.07" cut down to a 2.05 with a 1.6" exhaust. What is really important is what they act like @ 50"s of depression. J.Rob
 
Like I said nasty water pump drive set up. J.Rob
 

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I'm actually starting to put very little stock in flow numbers these days. But flow observed on my SF-1020 was 263 cfm @ .500" with 267 cfm @ .600" and up. The exhausts always move 179-180 cfm with a pipe, and I say always because I don't do much with them. Oh and that was a 2.07" cut down to a 2.05 with a 1.6" exhaust. What is really important is what they act like @ 50"s of depression. J.Rob

I understand what your saying about flow #'s as there are other factors involved in how well a head performs. Nevertheless it's still something to look at IMO, but I'm just an amateur when it comes to heads. Hum... 50", I've just recently read where some guys are flowing them at 50". What do you see different at 50" of depression vs. 28"?
 
Rob- I don't think you would be out of line at all to have the customer witness the dyno pulls and then sign off if satisfied. How the hell can you be responsible for your quality work when someone else dicks with the engine? Great job on pulling that much from the 360. Dan
 
Rob- I don't think you would be out of line at all to have the customer witness the dyno pulls and then sign off if satisfied. How the hell can you be responsible for your quality work when someone else dicks with the engine? Great job on pulling that much from the 360. Dan

It's funny you say that. The customer and I did just that and he just left. BTW he just had to see his 650 hp on there for a pull and it made this. Check the torque @ 3500. Thanks but its not hard with today's parts and technology. J.Rob

p.s. Should be a great street carb.
 

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The reason nothing else broke was because the head gasket thankfully got out of a bad situation when it couldn't take anymore-lol. Now that I have put in some Cometics I will make it very clear that the warranty (implied or otherwise) expires the moment my shop door closes on his way out. At least these gaskets are .015" thicker than the ones replaced--small drop in compression makes me feel a little better, but then so does a couple of glasses o' Rye. J.Rob

Those Cometecs are 0.015 thicker than which ones - 1008 Felpros?

You are right about the rookie mistake of messing with the timing if a new engine doesn't fire. I did the same thing when I put my (built, dyno'd, stored, bought by me, heads removed to be checked and dist removed to prime the oil, reassembled) stroker in and it would pop but not run. Turned out it really just needed to be cranked over more to get things flowing. Shoulda cranked it over a while with the ign off then tried to fire.

That is very impressive power and torque considering the 360 stroke! Over 100% efficiency too.
 
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