Stopping the knock: Lower compression and ported heads...

-

Kern Dog

Build your car to handle.
FABO Gold Member
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
9,749
Reaction score
28,041
Location
Granite Bay CA
After many attempts to get the 440/493 to run right on pump 91 fuel, I decided to pull the heads. I'm having them ported, getting the chambers opened up a bit and after that, a fresh valve job. To those members that are not familiar with this ongoing saga of mine, here is a summary:

440 block .030 over, 4.15 stroke, flat tops .017 in the hole. Fel Pro head gasket .039, Edelbrock 84 cc heads. Lunati Solid flat tappet 261*/271* @ .050 degreed in at 106. .556/.578 lift using 1.6 rocker arms. 160 thermostat. Performer RPM intake, BG 850 VS carb with 84/93 jets. MP electronic dist, with chrome box. Timing had to be limited to 30 degrees total or LESS to avoid knocking.

The engine always seemed to make decent power but never enough to really impress me. The engine ran fine in cool weather on 91 as long as I didn't keep it to the floor. I ran 104 octane fuel once as a test. The engine still knocked on it. I recurved the distributor using the stiffest springs in the tuning kit, but it didn't help. I could ease the car up to speed keeping at or below 1/2 throttle and it ran fine. Full throttle runs resulted in detonation every time....UNTIL I poured in some 110 leaded fuel. The car ran faster than ever and there wasn't a hint of detonation. This showed me that I had 2 choices: Dig into the engine and make some changes, OR run 110 fuel and leave the engine as is.

I wanted to run on the easily available pump premium fuel. I didn't want to limit myself to race gas. I like to drive the car out of town for shows and such and this means buying gas wherever I can find it.

There has been much discussion on quench and how if I just went with a THINNER .027 Cometic head gasket, I'd get into an optimal .044 quench distance. The problem there is that I'd then be at 11.25 to one! Quench or not, that is a ratio that would surely put me at the ragged edge. I decided to go the other route. I'm going to use either a .075 or .086 Cometic gasket. The .075 drops my ratio to 9.89 and the .86 lowers it to about 9.7 to one. This is assuming the heads have an 84 cc chamber. They have been lightly milled 3 times over the years and it is quite possible that they are less than 84 ccs.
The head porting guy has had the heads over a month. I'm pissed that it has taken this long, but apparantly his boss keeps pulling him away for other projects. I am quite anxious to get the engine back together. The lower compression will allow more spark timing which will certainly increase the power. The porting should allow the engine to make more power as well.
 
Something just doesn't seem right to me. That cam has something in the vicinity of a 84* intake close. Even at 11.50 to 1, i'm coming up with a dynamic ratio in the 7's. I might be missing something? I hope some other's will chime in.
 
Those thick head gaskets will ruin good combustion. You're pretty much gonna turn it into a 78 New Yorker dud.
 
Something just doesn't seem right to me. That cam has something in the vicinity of a 84* intake close. Even at 11.50 to 1, i'm coming up with a dynamic ratio in the 7's. I might be missing something? I hope some other's will chime in.

after the other thread it dosn't matter, he is going to do what ever... Best of luck, but your making it worse...
 
The head porting guy has had the heads over a month. I'm pissed that it has taken this long, but apparently his boss keeps pulling him away for other projects.

I hope this is reflected in the final bill...LOL
 
Actually, I would like pictures of the piston top,the combustion chamber,and the untouched head as is. Relax,guys.
 
It's not an approach I was in favor of so I'm in the "wait and see" mode on this one. I hope it all works out.
 
I'm running the same stroker as you with a 4.15 stroke using closed chamber Indy EZ heads but I had the bowls opened up to 85cc. Flat top pistons .007" in the hole. .040" MLS head gasket. 38 degrees locked timing. Compression is 10.9 to 1 and .047" quench and it makes 750hp on pump gas. I would listen to these guys when they say to lower the head down and open the chamber up some and you will make more power and should not detonate.
 
I can understand having to work around the pump fuel some, but I don't quite understand why the 104 gave little to no help? Having to go all the way to 110 with that combo seems extreme to me. Would've loved to know what the cranking compression was before the recent head removal?

I hope the new mods get you the results you're looking for.
 
The cranking compression was an average of 191.
The cam card showed an intake closing of 56.5 degrees @ .050.
I would LOVE to have made things work with the engine as was, but I was up against a wall with it.
I tried everything that I could think of. I tried most things that other people thought of.
I tried different carb jetting, different carbs, different distributor curves, different distributors, different fuel, higher octane fuel, tried tuning with a wideband EUGO sensor....I even rigged up a long fuel line to test fuel pressure at WOT. So far, nothing that I have tried seemed to make a differnce except the 110 fuel.
The guys in the local Mopar club were zero help. Most of them are old timers with cars that never see over 3000 rpms.
I am not one to post just to solicit an "atta-boy" from the masses. I have posted many times asking for help. Many of you have stepped up to offer advice that should have worked. I am dealing with something here that seems to defy any mechanical sense. I have read from many that an engine like mine should have ran fine on 91 octane, yet I have been unable to do it with THIS cam. The MP 509 I had in before actually delivered lower cranking compression by an average of 3.5 psi and it knocked less. I don't mean to piss on anyones advice. Rusty Rat Rod tried to help but is obviously disappointed in the whole thing. I'm sure others feel the same as he does.
I know that it is often the case where a person thinks he has made all the right moves but has missed a step along the way. I really wish that I knew where I went wrong here. I have calculated the engines specs numerous times. I have degreed the cam and checked the timing marks on the balancer to verify TDC. As I mentioned in other posts, in 2005 I had the car at a dyno shop and it was there that I learned that the timing had to be limited to around 30 degrees total to avoid detonation. This was with almost no carbon on the pistons to raise compression. The dyno guy felt a modern cam would help and suggested the Comp XE285HL cam. When I asked about thicker head gaskets he felt the same as many members here: Yeah, it will drop compression but you'd also lose the effects of the quench. I went ahead with the Comp cam and a thicker .060 Cometic gasket. The engine was then able to tolerate up to 35 degrees of timing and made more power than before. That cam went flat, as did the next Comp cam. It was because of those failures that I went back to the 509 cam.
I've read and heard about quench and its benefits, I'm just nervous about making more changes that do not help.
I find it amazing that people suggest to run a thinner head gasket. The thinking (As I understand it) is that the increase of quench will MORE than offset the possible drawbacks of the increase in compression.
I suppose that I could try the thinner head gaskets. Not saying that I WILL, just letting you know that I am not as bull headed as I may appear. The car isn't my daily driver and it isn't an inconvenience to let it sit if I run into the same detonation problem again.
 
Frank what is your PCV setup? Valve cover baffles? Sucking in any oil or even vapors with make is ping like a ***** too.
 
Have you checked to verify the crank damper timing marks are correct at #1 piston top dead center?
Maybe need proper quench clearance to go with your compression, or lower the dynamic compression ratio with a cam change. All the old ultra high compression engines of the late 60's ran well...with the right camshaft.
Just some ideas..
 
Wow man, i've been nudging some guys to push the envelope a little more on their limited use "hot rod's", but this one really has me thinking.

Thanks for posting your numbers. :thumbrig:

I assumed you have the Lunati with 316/326 advertised duration. Looking at the XE285HL and the 509, it's hard to comprehend that the cranking compression/knock tolerance could be worse with the Lunati?

Grasping at straws here, But is there any way that cam was misground or mismarked?

Keep us informed. This could be a learning experience for some of us.

Good Luck, Rick
 
Frank what is your PCV setup? Valve cover baffles? Sucking in any oil or even vapors with make is ping like a ***** too.

I have MP cast aluminum valve covers with a PCV valve on the left, ran to the base of the carb. The RH valve cover has a chrome aftermarket breather on it.
I had a problem years ago with "PCV pullover". I made a baffle that virtually eliminates any chance of oil getting in unless the engine is upside down!
I'll add that when it used to knock, I never saw any blue/white smoke, only dark colored like unburned fuel.
I'll try to load pictures of the piston tops. There is some carbon buildup but thats all. I don't know what symptoms that detonation might leave behind. In 2011 when I pulled the engine to rering it, the rod and main bearings looked great even though I had some detonation in the past.

Regarding the idea of using the T H I N N E R head gaskets....Anyone care to sponsor me? If the engine runs fine, I'll pay you back !! :D
 
I have MP cast aluminum valve covers with a PCV valve on the left, ran to the base of the carb. The RH valve cover has a chrome aftermarket breather on it.
I had a problem years ago with "PCV pullover". I made a baffle that virtually eliminates any chance of oil getting in unless the engine is upside down!
I'll add that when it used to knock, I never saw any blue/white smoke, only dark colored like unburned fuel.
I'll try to load pictures of the piston tops. There is some carbon buildup but thats all. I don't know what symptoms that detonation might leave behind. In 2011 when I pulled the engine to rering it, the rod and main bearings looked great even though I had some detonation in the past.

Regarding the idea of using the T H I N N E R head gaskets....Anyone care to sponsor me? If the engine runs fine, I'll pay you back !! :D

detonation will leave divots like it was hit with a ballpeen hammer, especially around the edges.
 
Actually, I would like pictures of the piston top,the combustion chamber,and the untouched head as is. Relax,guys.

Lol, oh I'm completely relaxed-I'm actually just settling in to see how this pans out. I genuinely hope the detonation issues subside, just here to watch
 
Lol, oh I'm completely relaxed-I'm actually just settling in to see how this pans out. I genuinely hope the detonation issues subside, just here to watch

its a funny thing, us outsiders REALLY have no say or "money in" on how this turns out, but i know i can be at work wondering why someones car is doing something and drive my self up a wall!

I think something in the big picture has been missed. and being we dont have in front makes it very hard to diag...

Op
can you post all the specs your using to figure compression (SCR/DCR) and the full cam card?
 
I have MP cast aluminum valve covers with a PCV valve on the left, ran to the base of the carb. The RH valve cover has a chrome aftermarket breather on it.
I had a problem years ago with "PCV pullover". I made a baffle that virtually eliminates any chance of oil getting in unless the engine is upside down!
I'll add that when it used to knock, I never saw any blue/white smoke, only dark colored like unburned fuel.
I'll try to load pictures of the piston tops. There is some carbon buildup but thats all. I don't know what symptoms that detonation might leave behind. In 2011 when I pulled the engine to rering it, the rod and main bearings looked great even though I had some detonation in the past.

Regarding the idea of using the T H I N N E R head gaskets....Anyone care to sponsor me? If the engine runs fine, I'll pay you back !! :D
So no air/oil separator between pcv and carb I take it. Could always plug it and see I guess.
 
I have noticed though, all the same observers are here to offer remedy or support...even Rob...as he rolls his eyes. lol

That being said-I thought the oil ingestion aspect had already been covered and the OP said oil wasn't a problem...maybe I'm confusing FD with another thread...hmmmm

OH-and 805, you're absolutely correct...many times I've wandered off after reading these threads about a problem someone's having on here
 
detonation will leave divots like it was hit with a ballpeen hammer, especially around the edges.

I'm going to load some pictures in a few minutes. The pistons have some carbon but there seems to be no markings like you describe.
 
All of the pistons have some carbon buidup, but I don't see any physical damage like divots or anything. What do you see?
 

Attachments

  • Nov 2013 701.jpg
    66.9 KB · Views: 855
  • Nov 2013 702.jpg
    58.6 KB · Views: 880
  • Nov 2013 703.jpg
    49.8 KB · Views: 862
-
Back
Top