Stroker Smallblock cost

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'64 Cuda

'64 Cuda

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I'm weighing my options here. I'd like an honest answer from some of you stroker smallblock guys as to what it really cost to build your engine, from oil pan clear up through the carburetion system. I'm trying to decide whether to just build the 340 I have, build some sort of stroker engine, or bite the bullet, sell the 340 block, heads, crank, etc. to offset the cost & buy my dream engine as a crate motor from Mopar performance. They have a 410 cu. in. 465 horse stroker that makes me drool.
 
Outside of the cost in parts you can find on line, theres shipping, taxes, and balanceing issue of the parts and machining parts and possible assembly of parts from the machinest that isn't covered by most threads and is something hard to nail down since costs vary from shop to shop, state to state.

The real added cost over a stock build is, in a basic breakdown, just the crank and possibly added cost of a different more costly piston. And crank clearancing.
 
Hughes built my stroker. Reworked my Eddy heads too! Assembled the short block and did all the block prep work. Good people to deal with. I got a good sum of money in it but it was well worth it. I did buy quite a few parts from them which added to the cost. Check them out and talk to Dave. Each motor is gonna cost more or less than the next guy based on what options you go with. Be prepared to spend over $4000.00 anyway.
 
Great topic... :thumbup:

Well it depends on a lot of factors:
rods I or H type
Crank Cast or Forged
Cam Solid Roller etc
Pistons forged or cast

Well you get the idea right?

I did a 416 with forged crank and all the goodies, Ross forged pistons,solid crane cam, racing oil pan, new Edelbrock air gap, 800 Edelbrock carb, MSD ignition etc. new balancer, every part you can think of new and top of the line.

I guess when all is said and done about $5500-$6000. could have done it for about 2k less but I did not want to go cast! BUT I know what I have and it has not only more power than a crate mopar engine, but is put toghter correctly too. Another thought for you. Todays parts ( factory blocks ) are not as thick as an old block, less strong etc. However, the heads on the new engines are decent out of the box so to speak. I used the 340x and then ported them myself, put oversize stainless 1.625 ex and 2.02 int. with the smaller 11/32 stems .100 taller etc. I have a lot of head port experiance, I am not the best but pretty good. So that saves me a few bucks too. But a guy can spend more on porting than a decent new set of heads. The heads are the key to the HP you need.

I could have easily spent another $1500-$2000 on heads too. But I would have only gone to that level if I am looking to get into the 500 and up HP ranges.

In terms of reall HP, I have seen the strokes at camp Cheby claim 800-900 hp on pump gas in 383 cu... yeah right..

For the $$ the crate is a good deal, but if I went that route I would pull it apart too and inspect the clearances etc. it will not be as strong as what i have.

Anyway hope this gives you a base line...
 
I kept track of every item.. gaskets, freeze plugs, internal balancing, freight, fuel pump, carb , plug wires , etc. etc .,machine shop labor, and compensating my brothers assembly time. This was five years ago, for a cast crank rotating assembly from Muscle Motors and Eddy heads from Hensley Racing. It made me sick when I tallied it all up.. roughly $6,000. If I get time later I can look it up and post the itemized list if anyones interested. Would I do it over??? No doubt!
 
So what would the power out put be roughly be for a stroked 340 at 30 over (4 inch stroke cast crank) with a decent cam and lifters, medium range expense port job X heads(2.02 intake and 1.6 exhaust), Edelbrock air gap and a holley 850 double pumper carb, and decent rods and pistons? Which rod is best to use?
 
70Dart; I followed Mike Ware (of Muscle Motors) recipe to the T for my 360/408 build 6 years ago. Then the steel crank wasnt available, neither were the I beam rods. Mike estimated my kit of Ross pistons(9.7CR), Eagle H beam rods, cast crank (internally balanced) , used with Stage 1 ported Eddy's, airgap, holley 3310, comp cam hydraulic .509/.511 lift would produce an honest 435/ maybe 450 hp. Not super impressive hp, but the torque difference was incredible. The 1 5/8" hedman headers were a huge bottle neck.. learned that after switching to Hooker 1 3/4" jobs 2 years ago.
Would guess you would get similiar numbers with a 340/416 build.
 
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=3374

is that build a honest 500-550 hp?

well the question really is. would that engine make a GREAT street machine?

im getting closer and closer to building my own engine....i love the idea of a big block but i hate the idea of the wieght and room isssue. so would a stroker small make a very streetable car?

it goes infront of a 4 speed
 
408DUSTER is right. The torque is incredible. Yes the stroker makes for a really fun and impressive street machine! The 500-550 hp range is accurate also. I have a Hughes roller cam in mine and the Air Gap intake with a 800 Eddy carb. Hughes estimated my output at 510 hp and from the way the car responds I'm confident of the numbers. I had to install some frame connectors to handle the addtional torque and some other suspension upgrades as well.

Trust me, you won't be dissapointed!
 
64 cuda is working from the early A Body and will face different problems than the later larger cars. The biggest one is getting the engine to breath.

408 Duster nailed it:
“The 1 5/8" hedman headers were a huge bottle neck. learned that after switching to Hooker 1 3/4" jobs 2 years ago.”

That doesn’t mean you can’t build a great performing car, the early A Body cars are lighter and don’t require as much HP to run strong.
 
Thanks for all of the comments. The more info the better. I haven't decided what to do about the exhaust. I have a set of the 340 Hipo manifolds & a set of 1 5/8" fenderwell headers. I'd kind of like to stick with the manifolds since I have them, but the car has already been cut for the headers, so I'd have to patch the fenders. I do have the panels if I decide to do that. I have thought about the TTIs or the Doug's headers but neither looks like it will work with my 10.5" clutch without opening another can of worms. It's always something. I'll just throw in here that I have a 3.91 gear in the car.

As to the varying costs for machine work etc. I realize we're just talking ballpark #'s as far as what my cost would actually turn out to be. While I don't like the idea of having to tear down a new motor to check clearances it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

I've been trying to get a definite price from Mopar Performance for the crate motor I want (part # P5153527) but haven't heard anything definite. I wrote Mopar performance & told them I had been trying for nearly a year to get a price on the motor. I said I had checked with my dealer, who told me the part number is good but no price is listed for it. I also told them I had checked on line with several vendors but none had been able to give me a price. MP wrote back & said that I should check with my local dealer because they were the best source of info. I wrote them back & asked them if they had even read my email & asked why they hadn't just told me to set my *** on fire. :banghead: It would have been just as much help! I repeated what I had said in my first email about not being able to find info anywhere & they sent me a canned response saying I hadn't given any more info that would help them answer my question & they would file the correspondence! :wack:

I finally called the Mopar tech line & told them what had been going on. The guy I talked to thought the "*** on fire" comment was pretty funny & said the reason there was no price on the motor is because it's still undergoing testing. I thought "well, that answers that." & then a few days later I saw an ad in MPG listing the motor for just under $10,000. Admittedly, this is complete with a six pack, minus the air cleaner, but it's still a lot. And it's probably still not available yet anyway.

So, now that I've finished that rant, where would I stand if I sold everything off & bought the crate? Would I be better off to sell my 340 stuff (basically a complete, disassembled late 60's forged crank bottom end & J heads with 2'02s) to some guy that "has to have a 340"? I would end up with new everything, including a much better head design than my J heads, & they would be ready for unleaded gas. The crate engine would have one of the new 340 blocks, a new stroker crank (forged or cast? anybody know?) & an assembled package (comp. ratio, cam, springs, carburetion, etc.) that supposedly is ready to go. Would the exhaust bottleneck of my small fenderwell headers or stock manifolds make a big motor a waste of time? Should I just find an older 360 to build & put a six pack on that? I'm still wide open at this point. If somebody wants to donate the ten grand, I'm open to that, too. :toothy7:


:burnout:
 
I use the 320 HP PM Crate motor in 65 Barracuda, I’m also using 1 5/8 (recommended for this motor by MP) headers. All the other bigger HP motors in the MP catalog called for 1 7/8 headers. The 320 Hp Motor, 10.95 inch clutch, and 3.23 sure grip fries the 235 60X15 street tires. However, I have read post form other crate motor customers that had major motor problems because oil consumption during break in is way higher than you would expect and failed to check there oil regularly.

The other concerns I had was cutting the hood to clear the carburetor, my air cleaner bolt just touches the hood pad.

The Clutch can be handled two ways as long as you use the original Z bar mounting on the cars body panel. The 273 clutch fork is smaller than the normal fork and made to clear the exhaust pipe, you can use it with any 10.5 inch diaphragm clutch. I had a good muffler shop manufacture my exhaust pipes, you may have trouble if you purchase pre-made set. You can’t use the 273 fork with a Borg and Beck high performance clutch (mine is a 10.95 MP scallop clutch) because of the grater pedal pressure required. But, you can use the conventional fork and mounting plate with a high performance Borg and Beck clutch, because the fork angles downward to clear exhaust pipe and is longer. Be prepared to manufacture a bellhousing Z bar mount and a special Z bar for both applications. I salvaged several Z bars and cut them in the center to get the length and lever orientation correct and then modified the lower lever to fit the application, then welded the results.

Good luck with your project
 
Hey, what RPM do you guys shift these strokers at? I shift my 12.50 street car at 6100 - 6200 rpm. Its a 360. Since these make great torque, I was just wondering.
 
go to ohiocrank.com and look at their prices, best I've seen, stroker kit for less than 1000, but there's more to it than that as we all know...
 
1st off, let me apoligize for the long post.

OK 64 Cuda one of the most important things to look at is the exhaust. You are right for getting this out in the open. It needs to get out! Look at the size of even a stock big block exhaust manifold. You basicly are taking a small block to a big block. The stock stuff wont get it, and small headers help, but more is better to a point, and it needs to be opened up. I to have an early A body too. I know that they are a lot, but you should look into the step-up TTI headers for the early A body with 3" exhaust. Or make your own. I think that the strokers need to be treated like a big block. They can handle more cam because of the rod to crank piston speeds and ratios. With the long stroke the volume of air in the cylinder needs to get out, also with the increase stroke you have more time. It all comes down to Suck Squeeze Bang & Blow and the timing of when things happen. And yes 500-550 HP is very doable with even decent modified iron heads. Here is a link on another post to a 64 Dart with good TTI headers. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=16092&page=3

Think of it this way, when the piston is on the down stroke, intake valve open, it is like hypodermic needle pulling suction to get air/fuel into the cylinder to fill the voided space, this is also in part affected by the exhaust exiting. So when the cam overlap is designed to a point where the exhaust is still a little open and on the closing position, while the intake is just opening, you get even more of a pull of the exhaust gases exiting and thus helping the intake to breathe better. Overlap.

It is for sure a science. To much duration (cam overlap) loss of low end torque, low vacuum etc. But at a point of high RPM depends on the cam grind etc. you can make a lot of HP because the timing is right for things to happen again. Well all things being designed to eliminate bottle necks. That’s why crotch rockets spin 10K +. They make little power off idle compared to my Harley. Which it turn is like a Mopar, more stroke more torque, and does not have to spin to high, will live longer etc. Heck even a slant 6 has a long stroke.

I think that this is something I have seen for more than 30 years. If for example you take any engine, any 318, 340, 416, 440 etc. All things being equal in terms of compression, fuel type etc. The more cam and head flowing you can produce = more HP but at a higher RPM (unless you squize it harder)and thus a loss of low end torque. So how do we keep the low end for the street when you are not going to live at 4k-7k all the time?

Well no replacement for displacement. That is why Mopar had Darts etc with 273,318,340, then 383 & 440s etc. You get tons of torque just by adding size. And yes many of these engines had better cams heads etc. But you already know this right.

So what I see is very cool today is that you can now have the torque minus the weight and size of a big block in a small package. Well except that even though the big block is heavier, the force of a larger rod/piston crank in a 440, once it gets spinning is HUGE! Now we got the guys stroking and building them to ... well that is another topic!

I think the stroker small block is an awesome thing. Just use the better parts so it holds together, don’t get to crazy on the cam for the street. You should have so much low end you will burn the tires off of the Cuda...

Guys, in my 64 Dart GT, I bought this car in 74 when I was 14 with my dads help. Anyway I built the hell out of the 273, did 4 speeds, went through 18 clutches in two years of drag racing, and broke 4 8 3/4 rear end combos, ended up with a 727 manual VB. I tore the engine apart many times changing cams etc. And for the last time in 4 years, back in 79 sunk 6k into the 273. It could run all day at 8k. Was crap on the low end, idled at 3k with barley 2" vac. It was great on a track & circle track. I ran it at Ontario Motor Speedway with the pedal to the metal around the track. Just like a NASCAR driver. Car lived in the 7500 rpm range and was fast! But on the street with enough gears and AV gas the honest to GOD best times were 13.53 in the 1/4 @ 103mph, but it could punch out 0-60 in 3.8 secs when I had the 4.30 gear in it. Yes I could out run most guys light to light, but it was not practical. The issue was I did not have the torque in this little engine to pull hard enough long enough. It seemed once I got into 3rd and around 80-90 mph it was working. And I ran custom 13:1 pistons the works. Small bore limited valve size, but a blower would have been the answer to force it in the hole and make more torque. But hell I already spent too much. Could have bought a stock 340 and ran that fast with minor mods. But it was fun, and a learning experience. Also was nice taking a 273 and running faster than most 350 chebbies. Today they take these little BMWs etc stuff 6 speeds tyranny’s and live in that narrow band of power to get it to perform.

So that is what we are really are after here, is a wide range of power to deliver in only 3 or 4 gears and watch a muscle car fly! :angel9:

You guys know this is why we and I love Mopars. You see the dam stock Chevy & Ford guys get you off the line well they used too, and then here comes Mopar kicking their but at the end of the 1/4. I seen this time and time again at the Pomona drags, Orange county, hell Irwindale when I was a kid with the big block road runners getting them at the end.

So what is awesome is you are going to make this cuda really be able to launch from the line and have that torque like that big block road runner. I would build it. My new 416 is coming along great, I will have it running this early summer. I can not wait to hear it and watch my buddies 2006 Mustang he thinks is so fast go down in smoke!

You will have so much satisfaction doing the work, knowing what you have and driving the finished product! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
stroker mike said:
go to ohiocrank.com and look at their prices, best I've seen, stroker kit for less than 1000, but there's more to it than that as we all know...
Click to expand...


Also it cost a lot more, but the Ross Pistons I used are less weight than the KBs and others, and will also help if you build a forged version Cuda 64. Well that is if you decide to do 5K-6K as a budget for the engine?
 
[QUOTE='64 Cuda]I'm weighing my options here. I'd like an honest answer from some of you stroker smallblock guys as to what it really cost to build your engine, from oil pan clear up through the carburetion system. I'm trying to decide whether to just build the 340 I have, build some sort of stroker engine, or bite the bullet, sell the 340 block, heads, crank, etc. to offset the cost & buy my dream engine as a crate motor from Mopar performance. They have a 410 cu. in. 465 horse stroker that makes me drool.[/QUOTE]


I forgot I am a member here too.

A lot od details and info at:
http://www.mopartech.net/forumdisplay.php?f=38
 
djwhog thanks for all the info and your expertise. It looks like there are quite a few of us with a stroker in our future plans. Mine will be a 340 with ported X heads and not sure of the rest yet. Thanks again!
 
mikedevore said:
Hey, what RPM do you guys shift these strokers at? I shift my 12.50 street car at 6100 - 6200 rpm. Its a 360. Since these make great torque, I was just wondering.
Click to expand...
I do lazy 5800 rpm shifts on my mild 408 motor. Our track altitude is 4300', I still run 12.0's with 1.68 60 ft
 
Hey you guys... you are not even addressing the big issue. It does you no good to have a big horsepower / high torque engine if you don't do some serious upgrades in the rest of the drivetrain to get that power to the ground!

I am reading all about what it costs to build up an engine... but without the transmission, rearend, frame bracing and all of the other items that it takes to put it all to the pavement... all the power in the world will be worthless!

It is quite possible that the other "required upgrades" will cost more than what it cost to build the engine! This is especially true when you go all out on a maximum performance build.

Failure to upgrade to handle the power output is why you see a whole lot of 600hp+ cars that can't break a 12.5 second 1/4 mile time.
 
I just got a 360 core for 50 bucks on craigslist, and my combo will be 4 inch crank, kb's, eagle sir's, rpm air gap, 272 comp cam, and 1 7/8 doug thorley's. I have ported 340 x heads, and I'm gonna get one of those six shooters by barry grant or the bad boy 4-inline intake/carb, one or the other! and by the time I can afford that they will be old news, I'm sure..LOL :-| but hey, it's a labor of love..the good thing for me is that I already have a four link rear and 8 point roll bar, kelsey-hayes disc's and a few unfortunate miscalculations that I learned from in the past!! Sub-frame connectors or a roll bar to stiffen the frame might prevent your car from wanting to drive in little circle's later on!! I learned that the hard way... :-k good luck, man, I look foreward to the results..
 
djwhog, I love the story about the 273. Had a chance when I bought my Dart to buy a 450hp tunnel rammed dual 4 bbl carbs 273 that would scream right alone, haha. Man am I kicking myself in the butt for not buying it.

Everyone makes a good point, number one a stroker takes plenty of money. Number two, you do need to upgrade the trans, rearend, frame, and chassis for it all to work, or you can run a 10 second 1/4 mile and only thing going to stop you is the sand barrier.

I plan on building a hemi sized small block in the summer. Yes, the big 426 stroker kit for the 360 block. It costs 2,500 just for the kit. I am deciding between Eddys or Indys for the heads and intake. This isnt going to be a street engine though. Yes I will be able to run pump gas if I absolutely have too since I am only planning on 10.5 to 1 compression. I am building this for my Dart in hopes of getting very very very low tens or possibly high 9s next summer.

When ya build a stroker I dont care what it is, if you want absolute power, able to scare people out of bed when you start it up, then it costs money. I love a stroker, hidden power that no one will know. If you need help or anything, give me a PM and I can give you an opinion. Glad to help anyone in any way I can when it comes to a small block!
 
HeyI've gota '65 Dart with a 360. 830 Holley, mild ported J heads. 510/292 cam, 727 w/4.10 rear and a 9" slick. Well tuned it runs 11.90's. Changed to 8" converter and 4.56 gears 11.50's. Looking to build a stroker.The right parts and great machine shop work ,look to spend $5-6k. Then you'll need to change your suspension to handle all that power,minimum 500+hp. Open up the fenderwell for a 10"+ slick. Safety first -8pt roll bar, frame tied and not to mention strengthening the front frame. And only fenderwell headers work the best for this style. Its getting very expensive and I did not even start yet. Stick w/a 360 .060, Eagle steel rods and crank, 11:1 compression, ported J heads, 550/300 cam, 9" converter and 4.56 gears and you'll be running 11.5's and beating most of the street scene.
 
Yep thats what I am talking about too! I did trans, rear end, major suspension, frame etc. years ago to the car. But the engine still cost a lot more. I can build a bullet proof 727 - the convertor for less than $500. Yes it you need aluminum or steel drums and a few other race only parts you can get $1500-2000 easy in a 727. And you need gears, non-breakable driveshaft, etc. Tires oh yeah!

The Demonitator makes great points here, but the thread was how much $$$$ for a stroker.

I love that guys such as A/MP can run 11's with a good 360. It kills me though that I have a freind that says his stock full smog 2005 mustang runs 12's, and then I get a guy on another Mopar board telling me after all that is going into my 64 Dart with a 500+ small block, 727 trans, 3k stall and 3.91 with 25" tall tires will only run 12's! maybe with the secondarys wired shut. What an insult.

Hell, my friend Bruce when we were kids in 76 had a TA 340 6 pack his dad cosigned for him. I dialed in the distributor and carbs. We put a decent set of hooker headers on it and 2 1/2 calif turbo mufflers. This was all we did, stuffed H50 15 tires with Mickey T's with 12 lbs air and the car with a 4 gear and factory 3.91 ran 11.82 at best. The I built a 440 for my buddy Rick's 66 Satalite that only had a 3.23 posi, went throught the lights at 117mph in 2nd gear! So when I build a car with more than 100HP more and 1000 lbs less weight I know we are talking at least low 11's. Yes it would take 4.56 and bigger tires I feel to do 10's. Very low ETs are made out of the gate.

So many people always talk so much crap about stuff. I grew up with these 396 malibu clowns, boss 302 mustangs etc. I wasted them in my Dart. But yeah I put a lot of $$$ in everything. The heart is a great engine, but you have you have the whole package. I think it can be for 10k or so if you want 11's of faster.

So I think we all understand that the D man is correct, you can make a lot of power but you gotta get to the ground.. OH and you better have good brakes too...

My bottom line, I used to run this car at what was one of the best oval tracks in the world for a time, now there is shopping mall. And you dont take a stock 64 Dart and go 140MPH + in the turns, keep the pedal to the metal and live at 7500-8000 rpms on a cast crank and stock rods. But that aside, I like the fact that we can build these high torque engines, make a ton of power like a big block, and not have to get exotic with parts that need to hold together at 8000 rpms etc just to make power.

It also is something that even todays NASCAR guys are slower than we ran 30 years ago. To many restrictions and gimicks. It was all about cubic inches, always will be. I now have 50% more displacment than the 273 +.040= 280, now I am at 416. It is like having; can you even imagine a 413 crossram in an A body! Then making waking it up even more. These are all very nasty cars we are building guys. I am proud to be a Mopar guy and a minority among car people.

Man I love bracket racing and street racing. I'm sorry guys, just a guy on another board got my goat yesterday. Guess it is the same as my sportster with buell s1 heads cams etc that runs 10s and the rice rocket people say no way!


Anyway back to the man topic, sorry. I think in the range of at least 6k to build a good stroker that will hold toghter, add another 2k to make it a 600 hp and up, then there is the rest of the car too.

Take car guys, see ya around and I will get the time slips when I am done! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
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