Stroker specific cams (Part 2) cam reveal

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. DrEamer

    DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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    A while back I asked for recommendations for a 408 Magnum based stroker. If you want to read through 8 pages of discussion , I will link that thread below. So, with that said, I decided to do a second reveal thread instead of adding to a rather lengthy one. First I'll recap my requirements/ specifications so everyone is on the same page. The engine is going into a 1973 Challenger, it will never see a drag strip, and is truly a street car that will see a wide variety of road types including spirited driving on twisty road, to long freeway drives. It has a A518 automatic overdrive transmission, with 3.73 gears, and 26 inch tall tires. The top end of the engine will have TFS 190 heads, RPM Air Gap intake, and Holley Terminator X Stealth TBI fuel injection. I decided I wanted to keep the hydraulic roller lifters, plus wanted to be able use a stock distributor/oil pump drive. Compression is 10.17 to 1. My goal is to have a fun car to drive, while being reliable. It will also have power brakes, and A/C.

    So, now to the cam selection, and how I got there. After emailing various vendors, I ended up having Mike at B3 racing engine figure out the cam for me. I had actually called him on another matter, but after talking to him, it was obvious he had a better grasp of what I wanted. Plus, he actually had real world experience with the TFS heads to go by, instead of just numbers on a sheet of paper. This is the cam he cam up with:

    Intake
    280@0.006" 254@0.020"/ 227@.050"/ 149@.200"/ Lobe lift .350/ lift at valve .560 with 1.6 rocker arm

    Exhaust
    282@0.006"/ 256@0.020"/ 229@.050"/ 150@.200"/ Lobe lift .347/ lift at valve .5547 with 1.6 rocker

    Lobe separation angle is 112 degrees, with 4 degrees advance on the intake centerline.

    I know there are few that will think this is too small, but he figured in that with my overdrive, the engine will be "on the cam" at cruising speed this way. Also, while others thought a single pattern cam was the answer, Mike said the the TFS head need a little help on the exhaust side, but not a great deal. Notice that here is only 2 degrees difference in the duration numbers @.050. The lobe separation angle is a little wider to play nice with EFI, and should help vacuum for power brakes. Mike did make one point that with heads this efficient, a bigger cam is not needed so much for a street engine as mine. This should be a fun engine with good drivable wide power band, and that is what I wanted. Just for the record, he does do race engines with close to .700 lift on these same heads. Finely, I would like to thank Mike for coming up with this after several phone calls. He has earned my trust and business in the future. I will be buying my heads, rocker arms, and correction kit from him when the time comes. He was kind enough to grant me permission to post this, so please do not drag him into this if you have a disagreement with his recommendation.

    First thread for reference:
    Stroker specific cams?
     
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    • ch1ll

      ch1ll FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      What valve spring rate are you going to use?
       
    • yellow rose

      yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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      I’ve said this before, and it’s worth repeating here.

      If you are dealing with Mike at B3 and you chose not to listen to him, you have made a mistake. Mike isn’t some bubble gumming whiz bang in gym shorts. Mike is the real deal.

      You made the right decision. By along way.

      Keep us posted please.

      YR
       
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      • Cal Tonsley

        Cal Tonsley Well-Known Member

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        This is a great outcome for you, very happy that you’ve been working with Mike and I couldn’t agree more with your feedback.!
         
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        • DrEamer

          DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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          Here is the spring information from the TFS website:

          1.550” O.D. Dual Spring
          138 lbs. @ 1.950” Installed Height
          430 lbs. @ 1.250” Open
          420 lbs./inch Rate
          .680” Maximum Valve Lift
           
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          • Wyrmrider

            Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Is that a solid roller or what :)
            not a chevy cam which would be like 281@.006 140@200 (only numbers that matter) around .530 lift with 1.6 so at that duration chevy would loose 8 degrees @.200 or have to use longer duration
            wider LCA is ok with stroker as well as EFI
            u are using TFS springs? how do they match with cam vendor
            to me 138# is a bunch on the street/ endurance build
            How near are U to compression max with that Intake?you could shorten the seat 4 degrees if you needed to Howard for example only to get spring comparison
            275 @,006 148@.050 .564
            277 @.006 150@200 .5666 98438 spring 1.465 1.091 1.090 .807 N 122 @ 1.650 353 @ 1.100 425 .690 .950 for stock heads but they only want 122 on the seat
            otherwise great cam if that's the duration U need
            Check out the spring requirements carefully we don't want no flat lobes maybe you could set those springs up at 2"

            PRH you do/ recommend custom cams
            Comp's Extreme Mopar Hydraulics (the XT-HL lobes) Intakes
            275@.006 149@.200 .350 lobe
            279@.006 153@.200 .356
            so you could get comp to grind a special
            problem is dealing with comp and what to do for an exhaust lobe
            I like Mike getting an exhaust similar in height to the intake- makes setting up the springs easier
            most heads can not use a taller exhaust but I've seen some recently that can
             
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            • DrEamer

              DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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              You know, I appreciate the input, but I am fairly sure Mike considered everything when he came up with the cam. I'm going to trust his judgement on this. That said, the seat pressure you are talking about is what TFS uses on their standard hydraulic flat tappet heads. Those spring specs are.

              1.460” O.D. Dual Spring
              120 lbs. @ 1.900” Installed Height
              394 lbs. @ 1.175” Open
              390 lbs./inch Rate
              .650” Maximum Valve Lift

              If that is what Mike says to use I will.
               
            • Wyrmrider

              Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              above you posted
              138 lbs. @ 1.950” Installed Height which is what concerned me
              what is your installed ht

              I like post 7 much better
              you scared me hence the quick references
              cam looks great
              looks like a bigger nose than what I hadin my database
              or a little more duration 280 for the lift which is not a bad thing
              chasing the last .010 lift is
               
            • 70aarcuda

              70aarcuda Master Hoader of SBM FABO Gold Member

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              Those spring on the TF flat tappet cam head are PAC 1903.....I shimmed mine down to 1.80 to get 140 lbs on the seat.
               
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              • Garrett Ellison

                Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate.. FABO Gold Member

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                Good choice on keeping the hydraulic roller lifters for your build. I couldn't see that cam as being undersized in any manner for a happy street driver and highway performer, a real meat and potatoes grind to that end for that combination. Always beyond impressed with the what Mike turns out at B3.
                 
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                • ch1ll

                  ch1ll FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  I just thought that was alot of lift for a 280 some duration cam, which would require some heavy seat pressure, but it is a roller so be it. you are going with a good quality rocker arm and 3/8 push rods?
                   
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                  • DrEamer

                    DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                    Actually the lift is middle of the road, there were/are options in the .570-.580 range with the same duration. He picked out the .560 in part to maintain good valvetrain stability verses some of the other options. The plan is to use PRW rockers with Mike's correction kit. He has had good luck with them , but would prefer to use Comps, but can't because they do not make a 1.6 ratio. As for push rods, I will use whatever Mike says when I get to that point. He uses Smith Brothers push rods, which is great for me since they are a next day shipment from when they get ordered.
                     
                  • Wyrmrider

                    Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    yr said biggest pushrods you an fit
                    and I agree
                    HR
                    my bad
                    1.65 rockers?
                    Mike will find some to give you the correct arm length oce you get the fulcrum ht right
                    good choices on stability vs balls out heads up requirements
                     
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                    • DrEamer

                      DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                      I received a response from the cam vendor for suggested springs.

                      Outer Spring Out Side Diameter (O.D.): 1.465"
                      Outer Spring In Side Diameter (I.D.): 1.091"
                      Inner Spring Out Side Diameter (O.D.): 1.090"
                      Inner Spring In Side Diameter (I.D.): .807"
                      Seat Pressure: 122 @ 1.650"
                      Open Pressure: 353 @ 1.100"
                      Valve Spring Rate: 425
                      Maximum Suggested Lift: .690"
                      Coil Bind: .950"

                      Also, The recommended max pressure on for the lifters that Mike specced is 380, so I need to confer with Mike on this. I do remember talking to TFS and they stated that the flat tappet based springs were also being used for hydraulic roller engines in certain builds. Finely, the TFS head will take a 3/8 push rod, now you know.
                       
                    • Wyrmrider

                      Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      glad you are double checking everything
                      sorry that i missed the hr reference in your post
                      but all's well that ends well
                      as you may know I bought Krooser a Jones SFT cam for his circle track W2 motor
                      He also has 1.950 installed ht using +200 chevy valves
                      post up the springs part number and lobe numbers
                      ours are not in the on line lobe list
                       
                    • DrEamer

                      DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                      The cam is from Howards Cams, it looks like their website is down for some reason. I did however get an email through to Competition Products for the spring number which is 98438.
                       
                      Last edited: May 25, 2020
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                      • Wyrmrider

                        Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        the data in post 6 was from howard
                        but for ft
                        I missed the HR sentence
                         
                      • DrEamer

                        DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                        Howard's site is back up again, so intake lobe is bhr227350, and exhaust is bhr229347
                         
                      • Wyrmrider

                        Wyrmrider FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        thanks
                         
                      • Mopar Tech

                        Mopar Tech Active Member

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                        Close enough! Lol
                         
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                        • DrEamer

                          DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                          :lol: Yea, the cam that you and I discussed was really close to what I went with, maybe a little more tame, and a little difference in timing events. I do appreciate your input, it was one that pointed me towards closer durations and valve train stability. :)
                           
                        • Mopar Tech

                          Mopar Tech Active Member

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                        • DrEamer

                          DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                          So, this just the final update, I finely received the cam today. It was delayed a few weeks because the foundry that does the cores for Howards was shut down due to Covid situation. I took at couple pictures of the cam, and one of the cam card for further reference for those who read this in the future.

                          20200630_204352.jpg

                          20200630_204438.jpg

                          20200630_204451.jpg
                           
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                          • RustyRatRod

                            RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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                            Cool stuff, man. So since it has 4* ground in, does that mean they want it straight up at zero or at 108 by the wheel which would actually be 8* advanced from 112?
                             
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                            • DrEamer

                              DrEamer I suffer from cars on the brain!

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                              I just got off the phone with Mike to make sure myself. He said to set it up straight and confirm the intake 108 if that makes sense.
                               
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