Stroker specific cams?

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. DrEamer

    DrEamer Well-Known Member

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    I have been burning the midnight oil trying to figure out a cam for my 408 build. I stumbled onto the linked article , which made a lot of sense since my build is somewhat close to this in many ways. The cam is for a Ford small block, but it would seems like they could put it on a Mopar core. I might settle for a little less duration, but the theory seem sound.

    Street Stroker 351W Gets a COMP XFI Cam
     
  2. toolmanmike

    toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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    Post your total combination down to your rear tire size. What are you going to use it for? Street/strip or strictly racing?
     
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    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      Just choose a camshaft base on cubic inch displacement with all the rest of the combination factored in.
       
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      • MOPAROFFICIAL

        MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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        There's way more to it than this but with 408 cid I think like this..
        'Least' amount of gear I would run.
        3.55 gear =224-238 @.050
        3.91 gear =238-256 @.050
        4.10 gear =254-262 @.050

        What gear have you now?
         
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        • beanhead

          beanhead Well-Known Member

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          If you're stuck which way to go I would call one of the cam experts like Dwayne Porter or Mike Jones. Run your combo and intended usage by them. May cost a little more than something off the shelf from summit but you certainly won't regret it..
           
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          • mbaird

            mbaird mbaird FABO Gold Member

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            Get a custom ground cam from a pro like listed above. If you spend another 200$ it will be the best money you ever spent.
             
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            • rumblefish360

              rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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              The cam companies grind the cams for standard displacement engines, normally the larger or most popular sizes of the company there grinding it for. For small block MoPar guys, it is based around the 340.

              Will a standard off the shelf cam work well in a stroker, Yea sure BUT when you have one custom made by a real cam guru, oh boy is it so much nicer.

              When you speak with the cam company on the phone, be honest and leave nothing out. No secrets! The results will be worth every penny.
               
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              • DrEamer

                DrEamer Well-Known Member

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                Here is the plan so far
                Using a Magnum short block
                Heads are going to be Trick Flow 190's
                Compression is 10.4 to 1
                PRW 1.6 rockers
                26 inch tall tires
                3.73 gears
                Trans is a A518 w/ lock up (Converter will be tuned to cam)
                TTI headers w/ 2.5 full exhaust
                Induction most likely Edelbrock Pro Flo 4
                Car is 1973 Challenger which will mostly see street use, up to several hundred mile drives with A/C and power brakes.

                That is what I am thinking as well. I am not looking for the ultimate horsepower, but I don't want to leave easy HP on the table as long as it does not hurt drivability. I tried to talk to someone at Comp Cams, and he just does not get what I want. He must be pretty new, since he keeps having to go to his manager to have things explained to him. My conversation with Oregon Cam Grinders went better, I just need to get more in depth with the right person there. There also places like HiPoTek and Performance Injection Equipment that have a number of grinds, that can be customized to your needs.
                 
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                • mbaird

                  mbaird mbaird FABO Gold Member

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                  I have to be honest.. I am running an Oregon Cams grind in my Barracuda and I am not sure I am so impressed. I think they have a list of grinds they use and not really custom.
                  I should have had Brian do a true custom when I ordered his EQ heads . ( saved 200$ )
                  I have been chasing my tail trying to tune this thing for low and high rpms. I am starting to think it may be the cam profile .
                  It runs OK but nothing like it should.
                   
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                  • Garrett Ellison

                    Garrett Ellison Amateur driver on public roadway, do not imitate..

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                    I've got to see some of Crower cams custom drag race grinds lately. The custom cam manager's name is Shane and he runs a small block Dodge in competition. IMHO, it would be worth giving him a call.
                     
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                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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                      I'm still tryin. LOL
                       
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                      • Matts440

                        Matts440 Well-Known Member

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                        • 360duster

                          360duster Well-Known Member

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                          i ran a comp xr286hr for a while in my 408, 236/242°, 110°LSA, around .580" Lift with 1.6 Rockers. This one was very streetable yet powerful....ran a best of 11.40 with my Valiant with it. I would suggest sth. like that. I have the used one still here, but shipping to US would be the deal breaker i think. AFAIK another member here has got a used one for sale, check out parts for sale.

                          For a more race oriented car i´d choose sth. with 108 LSA and Duration around 250° @ .050", that will be my next step. At the Moment i´m running a Lunati 243/251° @ .050", 110°LSA and around .600° Lift - not really much better than the old comp.

                          Michael
                           
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                          • Wyrmrider

                            Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                            we went over this in another thread where one of our Aussie members was thinking of a XFI grind
                            XFI is for chevy lifter- leaves a lot of area under the curve on the table
                            or is longer than it needs to be for whatever flow it gives
                            or does not have as much area/ lift if using same duration
                            advice to contact Shane or Racer Brown or Mike Jones is sound
                            IDK if Mike has Street/ strip mopar solid grinds, his HYD is THE BEST for low compression applications and his inverse radius rollers are supurb
                            To answer your questions in first post
                            Not that I know of
                            too many variables such as HEADS

                            I think the XFI thread was in FBBO
                             
                            Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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                            • DrEamer

                              DrEamer Well-Known Member

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                              I started this tread really seeking input on mentioned cam to see if there was merit in the cam design. I do have some interest in the XFI lobe since they are designed for EFI like I plan on using. I would love to find the tread that Wyrmrider was talking talking about. That said, I may be over thinking this. I talked to a couple of friends yesterday. One has a '69 Dart with the mild 340 that he drives daily during the summer, and the other just finished a '63-64 Chevy pickup with a 5.7 first gen LS. Our discussion centered on the fact that neither have as much horsepower as what I should have, but they both are just fun to drive. In the end that is what I am after. Thanks everyone for the input and suggestions, it's been helpful. Keep it coming if you have something more to add.
                               
                              Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
                            • ou812

                              ou812 Well-Known Member

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                              The XFI lobes create a lot of noise...we use other lobes now that make similar power, but less than half the noise!
                               
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                              • rumblefish360

                                rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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                                Talk with (Brian) OU812 above and give him all the specs of your stuff. He can hook you up with a good power maker.

                                 
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                                • toolmanmike

                                  toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                                  Is there any specific traits that a stroker need?. Any specifics that it likes or doesn't like?
                                   
                                • DrEamer

                                  DrEamer Well-Known Member

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                                  That's sort of what I am trying to figure out. I have done a lot of research, and most say that a cam with more duration is needed, and of course heads that can flow the bigger cubic inches. My interest in the article was that they were also using a bigger spread then I have seen before in duration numbers. Most cams use a a spread of 6, something like 230-236 @.50 for example, where this cam uses a spread of 8. I guess I will have to give Brian a call next week.
                                   
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                                  • nm9stheham

                                    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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                                    IMHO.... A lot of what is being missed here is that you are going to use EFI. One key on the cam used for that 351W EFI build is that the LSA is wide... in the 112-114 range.... to keep the MAP sensor stable at the lower RPMs for stability in the EFI system. The lobe shape has little to do with that, so don't get hung up on ideas about the XFI lobe being particular in that regard.

                                    Your desire to not give away a broad performance envelope will drive you smaller durations, not larger ones. Your car driving description wants a very broad torque curve that reaches well down towards 2K RPM, and puts much less emphasis on peak HP. (But you will get good power from your breathing parts on your engine anyway. 'Drag race' grinds are not what you want.

                                    The duration spread has more to do with the valves and ports in the engine and little to do with RPM range or being EFI or carb.
                                     
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                                    • pishta

                                      pishta I know I'm right....

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                                      Someone used to have a line of cams for "Monster motors", They were designed for huge 500+ cid stroker motors and leveraged the long strokes into their cam profiles. I thought it was Crane? The 451 I had used one custom made for a stroker application. Ill have to get with the owner to find out whos cam we ran.
                                       
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                                      • 12many

                                        12many Well-Known Member

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                                        I'm still trying to figure out what a Chevy lobe is, and a Mopar lobe is. Ford lobe anyone? Specifically, where's a diffinitive chart, or data....something credible.... that shows duration at .200", .050", etc...
                                        and lift of said lobe that shows when the lobe becomes either that dreaded god awful Chevy lobe or the awesome almighty Mopar lobe? Seriously, the Chevy lobe nonsense is tiresome. Slow ramp lobe up to very fast and everything in between. Choose your specs accordingly.
                                         
                                      • rumblefish360

                                        rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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                                        OH! That’s easy.

                                        The MoPars as we know use a .904 litter, the Fords are smaller, the Chevies are smallest. The bigger the lifter diameter, the larger and /or quicker rising ramp cam you can use.
                                        Typical cams are ground with the smallest lifter because it makes it easy for the cam company to just slide in the cam core, press a few buttons, walk away and presto, a cam is made.

                                        Generally, you will ya e an increase in performance. There is no doubt. But if your a small lifter engine, (Chevy) and your looking to make serious power at the track, you enlarge your lifter bore to install a cam that will allow more valve lift quicker from the base circle to max lift.

                                        The more aggressive the lift rate at the valve the quicker you can move in more air and fuel for a bigger bang.(HP)
                                        There is a limit to how fast the valve can be opened and still see a power return. It is different for each engine combo. So there really is no way to know unless you have been there and done that on YOUR engine or you have done it ten million times.

                                        MoPars have this big lifter diameter as stock. This allows the ability to take advantage of what is there and not modify anything to do it ether. This is why Wyrmrider always suggests this for any cam change from a 10hp hop up to the sky’s limit.

                                        The more aggressive cam you can install ends up as more HP & TQ. Free power by taking advantage of what is already there waiting.

                                        IS a Chevy lobe bad? No.
                                        Are you leaving power on the table? Yes
                                        How much power is being left behind? That is a variable left to the been there and done that for THERE engine. Not to mention the exact nature of the build!
                                        Is it worth it? Yes, to a degree. It depends on the engines owner.

                                        I haven’t found it worth chasing for mild builds.
                                        I do have a big solid cam from Ultradyn listed as “For the Mopar .904 lifter ONLY.” Because the “Other guys” have smaller lifter diameters. It is a race cam. NOT a street cam @ 272@.050.

                                        There isn’t a Definitive chart per say. But in a cam book, IF they list the lifts of the cams ramp at various lift points, you can see how the cam lifts the valve quicker than another. This shows there “Rate of Lift” by the raw numbers on the cam. Then multiply by your rocker ratio to find the theoretical lift.

                                        What you will find is so small but also having an effect that once again, shows itself better and better as the engine build gets more radical.

                                        Also, I am also tired of the same post by Wyrmrider of what he thinks you need, Chevy lobe, inverse lobe, Slow rise bullshit for the average guys ride. But solider on he will I suppose.

                                        IMO, for the average street guy with the grocery getter, mild hot rod, light to light fun with his buddies, it’s ridiculous to chase the extra free power that only a dyno will show. And only a dyno will show it.

                                        Remember, the more aggressive the cam lobe, the quicker you wear out your valve springs. The more aggressive your build, the quicker they will wear out.

                                        1 last thing, the big company advertised “Use our cam because it takes advantage of your lifter best” is a big bowl of burnt bullshit served in Luke gravy. But sell they do and the complaining of there “MoPar fast rate ramp cams is seen here ALL the time.


                                        I’ll also include that the split pattern cam spread that seems to vary from article to article is ether just there choice of what they think will do well OR someone actually scientifically did some math on the balance between the intakes and exhaust port flow rates and adjusted the cams duration specs (and possibly other parameters of the cam lobes) to suite THAT PARTICULAR engine for what they want THAT engine to do, Specifically!
                                         
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                                        • rumblefish360

                                          rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

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                                          I’ll say NO to the resounding exclamation and excitement of others. Here is why, build your engine, dyno it, if it lacks HP up top, the next size cam is what you need to achieve your goal. Not enough torque down low? The next smaller cam is what you need.

                                          Unless you have more information that needed about your engine vs a rocket launch to the moon, any choice you make will more than likely be a good one. However to maximize the engine, start with the cylinder heads port flow balance and work on the cams lobes to get the most on what your endeavoring to achieve.

                                          I would start with a top of the line computer sim that has more parameters than simple head flow numbers. Tighten up your belt, it’s going to be a heck of a learning curve and your information list is going to get long.
                                           
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                                          • toolmanmike

                                            toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                                            Thanks, I am not presently building a stroker and I get bored with all the cam threads. "This worked for me but it's a different engine" is all too common. Thought maybe there was a guiseline or two to follow.
                                             
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