Swap A833 for Auto - 71 Duster 340

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twstd340

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I'm wanting to change my A833 for an auto. I was wondering if I should go with a 727 and add a gear vendor OD or something like it, OR go with a non-mopar like a Tremec or something? Also, how much modifying will need to be done to the tunnel doing this?

Thanks for any input
 
I want to swap from an automatic to an 4 speed in my Dart, so keep me in mind when you decide to start selling parts.
 
Neither;
until you be more specific about your application.
We're not in the Racer's Forum, so I assume you're not building a race car.

A 550+hp 340 cid Hot-Rod streeter, normally aspirated, is a bit of a beast. I wouldn't recommend it. I was involved with a 500hp 340 street E-body, and the guy who insisted on it being a 340cid, was more than a little miffed when all was said and done. Thankfully, it was not built to be a streeter, but a showcar.

For a city car, I see no good reason to install an od.
A 350/400hp NA 340 can be combo'ed without an overdrive.
On the low end, od would be optional. Closer to 450hp, and still cruising the hiway, well now, od could be preferred.
But honestly, it depends on a few things,like; mostly the size of the cam, how much hiway you drive, your stall and gears, and availability of a bigger engine or a stroker kit.

Maybe you just picked 550+hp out of a hat, IDK. Normally-aspirated, for a streeter, it's probably best to top out around 1.1 to 1.15, maybe 1.2 hp per cube. With a 340, yur looking at 375/400hp. If you really have to have a NA550+ hp with a 340, then you're looking at stroking it to a 416 which is IMO still borderline too small for a 550+ hp streeter.

And besides all that, what are your plans for solving the traction issues? I mean even 350/375hp is gonna smoke the street tires to somewhere North of 50/60 mph.

And then there's bracing the body; and
cooling the beast, and
Fueling the beast, and
firing the beast.

But to sorta answer your question;
I have had good success with my GVod behind my A833/367 cuber.
 
2 big issues to consider.....

GV price....they have really gotten up there, I think exceeding $2500
modification....to maintain the factory engine / transmission angle, modification /enlarging the tunnel aft of the transmission cross -member is required

if it were me.... I would go with the bolt in 727 swap and change the ring and pinion for what works best. Of course, I would also have a (bolt-in) 8-3/4 and several pigs....street, highway, strip. In my day, the early 70's, we would change pigs in a NY second for a $10 street race.......we called it, instant RPM.
 
Neither;
until you be more specific about your application.
We're not in the Racer's Forum, so I assume you're not building a race car.

A 550+hp 340 cid Hot-Rod streeter, normally aspirated, is a bit of a beast. I wouldn't recommend it. I was involved with a 500hp 340 street E-body, and the guy who insisted on it being a 340cid, was more than a little miffed when all was said and done. Thankfully, it was not built to be a streeter, but a showcar.

For a city car, I see no good reason to install an od.
A 350/400hp NA 340 can be combo'ed without an overdrive.
On the low end, od would be optional. Closer to 450hp, and still cruising the hiway, well now, od could be preferred.
But honestly, it depends on a few things,like; mostly the size of the cam, how much hiway you drive, your stall and gears, and availability of a bigger engine or a stroker kit.

Maybe you just picked 550+hp out of a hat, IDK. Normally-aspirated, for a streeter, it's probably best to top out around 1.1 to 1.15, maybe 1.2 hp per cube. With a 340, yur looking at 375/400hp. If you really have to have a NA550+ hp with a 340, then you're looking at stroking it to a 416 which is IMO still borderline too small for a 550+ hp streeter.

And besides all that, what are your plans for solving the traction issues? I mean even 350/375hp is gonna smoke the street tires to somewhere North of 50/60 mph.

And then there's bracing the body; and
cooling the beast, and
Fueling the beast, and
firing the beast.

But to sorta answer your question;
I have had good success with my GVod behind my A833/367 cuber.

Thanks for all of that information! I wish I had all the answers but I did not build it and could not get the cam specs from the guy I bought it from.

Yes, 550 HP was out of a hat. Not going to be a race car for sure, just a few shows but more cruising. I want to go to an automatic because I don't care for the clutching in the town cruises...distance cruises are fine. Supposedly it's a bit over 400hp but not verified or convinced it is.

What I do know is that it is a '72 340 bored 30 over with Edelbrock aluminum heads, Air Gap intake, Comp cam, and Demon 750 carb. 8 3/4 rear with 3:23 gears (wanting to go 3:91 or 4:10) Running 275/60 street radials and it will not by any stretch of the imagination smoke those tires with 3:23. Hell it won't even scratch them!
 
I have a ~2k mile 727, billet servos, Cope RMVB, deep pan, PTC 3500 stall, red clutches, Kevlar bands, etc. Factory floor shifter, linkage, etc.

Thats what you need! It shifts hard and handles my aluminum headed 408 just fine.

Just so happens, I need a 4 speed! :lol:
Maybe we should talk lol
 
Hell it won't even scratch them!
Something is wrong,
My 367, on the street, smokes any tires including the 325/50-15 BFG Drag Radials, thru 2 a gears and deep into the third. By it's Eighth Mile trap speed of 93@3467 pounds, the Wallace Calculator says that is 433 hp. I am running 3.55s, but I am sure it would easily do that with 3.23s as well.
You have all the basic ingredients to do that too.Even a stock 1970 340 would smoke the tires thru 2 gears.

I highly recommend a compression test. If the problem ain't there, then you need to look into the tune; starting with making sure the carb is opening up all the way,
then; finding true TDC, and then ignition timing, then your secondary tip-in, and finally your cam-timing.


Unless maybe you have an overdrive box,lol.
With 3.23s your second road gear in that box is a paltry 5.39, as opposed to 6.20 in the standard box. That's a 15% torque reduction right there. But if you had that box, your first gear would be 9.98 as compared to just 8.59 with the standard box, which is an increase of 16% in torque multiplication, and you would interpret that as a crappy 1-2 split, which, in fact, for a cammed up 340, it is. And, I'm sure you wouldda mentioned that......

If you find the clutch a PITA; was the car originally a slanty, and if yes, then the pedal ratio could still be from that slanty. And if you have a 3-finger clutch, that, for sure, is a mismatch.
But additionally, the 3.23s force a lo-torque engine into an unhappy rpm, most of the time, with those tall tires. For example;
20 mph is ~2060rpm in first/1490 in second.
30mph is 3090/2235,in second
40mph is 2980 in second/2150 in third.
If you have a lo-compression 340 with a cam, it will not do well below 3000 rpm. So the first thing I would do is a compression test.
 
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I would estimate your car is putting out 200-225 hp. Try a tuning forum and get back to us. Did I hear somebody say compression test? Yes...probably dished pistons around 8 to 1. A 340 with a 750 and a 3.23 could be a low compression stock worn out dog and still turn those 2.75x60 tires.
 
Something is wrong,
My 367, on the street, smokes any tires including the 325/50-15 BFG Drag Radials, thru 2 a gears and deep into the third. By it's Eighth Mile trap speed of 93@3467 pounds, the Wallace Calculator says that is 433 hp. I am running 3.55s, but I am sure it would easily do that with 3.23s as well.
You have all the basic ingredients to do that too.Even a stock 1970 340 would smoke the tires thru 2 gears.

I highly recommend a compression test. If the problem ain't there, then you need to look into the tune; starting with making sure the carb is opening up all the way,
then; finding true TDC, and then ignition timing, then your secondary tip-in, and finally your cam-timing.


Unless maybe you have an overdrive box,lol.
With 3.23s your second road gear in that box is a paltry 5.39, as opposed to 6.20 in the standard box. That's a 15% torque reduction right there. But if you had that box, your first gear would be 9.98 as compared to just 8.59 with the standard box, which is an increase of 16% in torque multiplication, and you would interpret that as a crappy 1-2 split, which, in fact, for a cammed up 340, it is. And, I'm sure you wouldda mentioned that......

If you find the clutch a PITA; was the car originally a slanty, and if yes, then the pedal ratio could still be from that slanty. And if you have a 3-finger clutch, that, for sure, is a mismatch.
But additionally, the 3.23s force a lo-torque engine into an unhappy rpm, most of the time, with those tall tires. For example;
20 mph is ~2060rpm in first/1490 in second.
30mph is 3090/2235,in second
40mph is 2980 in second/2150 in third.
If you have a lo-compression 340 with a cam, it will not do well below 3000 rpm. So the first thing I would do is a compression test.

Thanks for all of the good information. I will start with a compression test. It is the original transmission so I'm sure it's not an overdrive. The tires are 275/60x15 and it is a '72 block 340. It is an H code so not a slanty.
 
Edelbrock heads on a 340 with a 4-speed and you can't spin the tires!?..
There's a problem....
Personally I have a 410 Stroker and if I ever thought about putting an automatic in it without question it would be a 904.
Of course I would have a few expensive Parts in it.. of course the slip yoke would have to be changed but the driveline would not have to be shortened as they are the same length as a 4-speed unlike the 727...
 
IIRC the open chamber Eddies are 65cc, as compared to 70/72 for the 340 heads, and that should be good for a half a point on a nominal 8/1 engine.
From the several factory-stock,hi-compression 340s I have owned over the decades, I would never brag on their bottom ends with the factory 268 cams. So IMO the 8/1 engines would only be worse.
Couple that with a late-closing intake of a performance cam, and I can certainly imagine the sub-2500rpm area being soft.
But, you have a clutch, just like me, so off the line, you should still be able to lay tracks. And once the tires are spinning, it's just a matter of keeping the rpms high enough to continue laying 'em.
If your engine cannot do it with a clutch, then I doubt the automatic will be any different. And when she hits second, it will only get worse, because second gear with an auto, is about like third with a manual, the ratios being 1.45 for the auto and 1.40 for the manual.

But; even if the tune is right on;
if you are trying to lay rubber with the engine married to the tires, as in no clutch-slip, with 3.23s and 28" tires, that is not gonna happen , because the Rs are just way below where the power is, until maybe 3500rpm@34 mph, and by that time the car just accelerates. You can't get to 3500 before that, unless you toe the clutch. I mean, that's what it's there for.
And suppose you install 3.91s; now, 3500rpm will be 28mph, and you are still gonna have to slip the clutch out,or shock it into spinning the tires.
Here's the deal;
suppose your 340 makes 300 ftlbs at 3600rpm, at WOT/both barrels open and with full power-timing, which is 205hp. I mean just suppose.
By the time this gets to the ROAD, this is 205 x2.66 x3.23 x24/28= 1510 ftlbs. If you are driving at 34 mph, according to the gearing, then you will never break those 275s loose; 1510 is just not enough.

If, at 34 mph, you slip the clutch out to 5000rpm, and have 320hp there, that would be 336ftlbs, and by the math, this translates to 2475 ftlbs. And that, will certainly fry the tires.

If you want to fry the tires from a footstomp, you will need lotsa more footpounds. You can get it with a bigger engine, skinnier tires, less-sticky tires,more than 2.66 x3.23 gearing, or lots more cylinder pressure.
To that end, alloy heads are known to be detonation free at up to 185 psi on junk gas, and some FABO members are running up to 200 psi still on pump gas, with a tight-Q design.

Off the line, the TC will punch the Torque Multiplication up, but if the engine has a soft bottom-end, it could very quickly give that up.
The automatic trans once stall is achieved will make your combo feel about 10% bigger than it now does, by the way the TC works. So, your 3.23s will perform like 3.55s. But you will lose the ability to drop the hammer at 5000rpm,lol.
 
IIRC the open chamber Eddies are 65cc, as compared to 70/72 for the 340 heads, and that should be good for a half a point on a nominal 8/1 engine.
From the several factory-stock,hi-compression 340s I have owned over the decades, I would never brag on their bottom ends with the factory 268 cams. So IMO the 8/1 engines would only be worse.
Couple that with a late-closing intake of a performance cam, and I can certainly imagine the sub-2500rpm area being soft.
But, you have a clutch, just like me, so off the line, you should still be able to lay tracks. And once the tires are spinning, it's just a matter of keeping the rpms high enough to continue laying 'em.
If your engine cannot do it with a clutch, then I doubt the automatic will be any different. And when she hits second, it will only get worse, because second gear with an auto, is about like third with a manual, the ratios being 1.45 for the auto and 1.40 for the manual.

But; even if the tune is right on;
if you are trying to lay rubber with the engine married to the tires, as in no clutch-slip, with 3.23s and 28" tires, that is not gonna happen , because the Rs are just way below where the power is, until maybe 3500rpm@34 mph, and by that time the car just accelerates. You can't get to 3500 before that, unless you toe the clutch. I mean, that's what it's there for.
And suppose you install 3.91s; now, 3500rpm will be 28mph, and you are still gonna have to slip the clutch out,or shock it into spinning the tires.
Here's the deal;
suppose your 340 makes 300 ftlbs at 3600rpm, at WOT/both barrels open and with full power-timing, which is 205hp. I mean just suppose.
By the time this gets to the ROAD, this is 205 x2.66 x3.23 x24/28= 1510 ftlbs. If you are driving at 34 mph, according to the gearing, then you will never break those 275s loose; 1510 is just not enough.

If, at 34 mph, you slip the clutch out to 5000rpm, and have 320hp there, that would be 336ftlbs, and by the math, this translates to 2475 ftlbs. And that, will certainly fry the tires.

If you want to fry the tires from a footstomp, you will need lotsa more footpounds. You can get it with a bigger engine, skinnier tires, less-sticky tires,more than 2.66 x3.23 gearing, or lots more cylinder pressure.
To that end, alloy heads are known to be detonation free at up to 185 psi on junk gas, and some FABO members are running up to 200 psi still on pump gas, with a tight-Q design.

Off the line, the TC will punch the Torque Multiplication up, but if the engine has a soft bottom-end, it could very quickly give that up.
The automatic trans once stall is achieved will make your combo feel about 10% bigger than it now does, by the way the TC works. So, your 3.23s will perform like 3.55s. But you will lose the ability to drop the hammer at 5000rpm,lol.

Man that makes my head hurt! lol Time to sell this bucket of bolts and start over. ;)
 
I'm assuming that is a joke :)

340s like gears, or higher stalls. With 3.91s they can scare the crap outta you.
But I've always had 4-speeds and always had 3.55s or better. And with 3.55s, I always had to rev 'em up and dump the clutch to get the tires spinning. All of mine were stock-cam,hi-compression models. My nearly new 1970 Swinger340 liked 4.10s to pull the G60-14s. That was a great city-car.
 
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I'm assuming that is a joke :)

340s like gears, or higher stalls. With 3.91s they can scare the crap outta you.
But I've always had 4-speeds and always had 3.55s or better. And with 3.55s, I always had to rev 'em up and dump the clutch to get the tires spinning. All of mine were stock-cam,hi-compression models. My nearly new 1970 Swinger340 liked 4.10s to pull the G60-14s. That was a great city-car.

Yeah joking on the selling thing. I have very little experience so all the information made my head hurt trying to figure out what it all meant lol One minute I thought something was seriously wrong, next it was like motor could be just fine, more drive train cuz it's a pretty tall sticky tire. It does foul plugs so I know there is some tuning that needs to be done. I wanted to start with the tranny and gears first but with 3.91's I won't be able to do too much hiway cruising, but that's ok.
 
A518 is the 727 version with standard 727 ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00-.69od

The A500 is A999 based with ratios of 2.74-1.54-1.00-.69od.. the 1-2 split is a lil wider but if you gear it right, the split won't be a big deal.

Neither will fit into an A-body without widening the tunnel, and re-engineering the rear mount, and of course, you will need a shorter driveshaft.
Either unit is a great choice.
I'm liking the A500 with 3.91s. That will give your 340 a kickazz 10.71 starter gear, yet cruise with a 2.70 final drive, and 65=2180(with 27s). The 340 with the factory cam won't make great fuel mileage at 2180, but Ima thinking better than at 3160 which is what the rpm would be without the overdrive,lol.
I cruise my 367 with a 2.77 final drive at 65= 2240, and with a previous cam, the Hughes HE2430AL (270/276/110) cam, that thing did better than the best stock 318 I ever had.
The A500/3.91s will put you at about 32= 2400 cruising in second/5000 in first at WOT, and she'll hit 5500 at 34.4/5800 at 36.3 by the math. So that's not a lot of headroom for a footstomp. On the 1-2 shift, the Rs will fall to .54 or from 5800 to 2970, so a low-compression 340 with the factory cam is gonna struggle for a bit, but yur only doing 36 mph, so by the time you get to 40, the Rs might be up to 3600, and she'll be coming back up on the cam in a few milliseconds. Then she'll finish at 60=5000 more or less on the power-peak. She'll be about the best she can be, from zero to 60 with that combo.

TheA518 might be a hair quicker, but it will take 4.10s to equal the second gear of the A500. Your first gear with 4.10s will now top out at 5800=38.7, and on the 1-2 shift, the Rs fall to 59%, so to 3430 so that's up about 460rpm, I like it for the 340. And your cruise gear is 2.83, so 65=2280, heck yeah, the 340 cam will like that better.
So for a low-compression 340, I recommend the 2.45-1.45-1.00-.69 ratios with a 4.10rear, and 27" tires. And that means the A518 is your choice; or, you could put the A904 gears into the A500 case. I have not tried that, and don't know what parts would fit on the mainshaft, so you'll need to talk to someone who has.
Be advised tho, that in either case; low gears over 10/1 with a TC are killer off the line, so don't be leaning forward when you gas it, and hang the heck on to the steering wheel; cuz if it don't spin, you will be launching into tomorrow.. I highly recommend not to bolt on a Double Pumper carb,lol
With 4.10s, you would be able to swap out the 340 cam, for one a size or two smaller, which would pump up your cylinder pressure, and get back some low-end torque, which would increase your hi-way mileage, AND, you could swap out the 4.10s for a more sane 3.91. Of course a cam two sizes smaller would be able to pull the A500 wide ratios gears......
So, like said
the compression test will tell a lot.
Until then I'm just blowing smoke.
 
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the compression test will tell a lot.
According to Wiki, Iowa has elevations ranging from 480 to 1670.. On an 8/1 340 that change is worth 6psi.
If you are starting with an 8/1 engine, with a factory 340 cam, your pressure at 1000ft is predicted to be 120psi or less, making it feel pretty soft, I mean really soft down low, especially with a 2000 or less stall TC. There is no cure for this, except more pressure.
You can bandaid it with more stall or a mote rear gear, or a clutch, but those only help you get moving. The low pressure is just a sad thing thru out the rpm range.
There are a couple of ways to get more pressure, but the best is to get the pistons closer to zero-deck.

But hang on; this is 2020 and that engine is nearly 50 years old. There is no telling what pistons are already in there as they are not likely to be the original... so
the compression test will tell a lot.
 
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