Temp gauge mystery

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dodgemahal

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When I start my slant6 engine and warm the motor the temp gauge needle doesn't budge. Thereafter and everytime I turn it off and then back on, the needle sweeps nearly all the way to the right(somewhat quickly) then sweeps back to the left and settles at zero, and stays there. I tested the wiring circuit last fall and it checked out okay. Has anyone a clue as to what's going on here? Thanks.
 
My first thought is the IVR is malfunctioning.

Does your fuel gauge do the same?



IVR function...

At first power on the IVR heating element starts to heat up. This takes a few seconds so full 12v is supplied to the temp and fuel gauge.

That has the effect of heating the gauge heater up faster.

Once the IVR reaches normal operating temp it then starts to open and close, pulsing the 12v to result in about 5 to 6v that the gauges need.

Now in your case the gauge will sweep fast to high then settle back to low.

This is not normal

Testing.

Turn the key to run, then short the temp sender wire at the temp sender to ground for a VERY short amount of time. Like 1 to 2 seconds. Have someone watch the gauge, it should rapidly sweep to high. If it does then the gauge and IVR might be good

DO NOT LEAVE IT SHORTED FOR MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME TO SEE THE NEEDLE MOVE.

if you do you WILL burn out your gauges
 
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Mi first thought is the IVR is malfunctioning.

Does your fuel gauge do the same?



IVR function...

At first power on the IVR heating element starts to heat up. This takes a few seconds so full 12v is supplied to the temp and fuel gauge.

That has the effect of heating the gauge heater up faster.

Once the IVR reaches normal operating temp it then starts to open and close, pulsing the 12v to result in about 5 to 6v that the gauges need.

Now in your case the gauge will sweep fast to high then settle back to low.

This is not normal

Testing.

Turn the key to run, then short the temp sender wire at the temp sender to ground for a VERY short amount of time. Like 1 to 2 seconds. Have someone watch the gauge, it should rapidly sweep to high. If it does then the gauge and IVR might be good

DO NOT LEAVE IT SHORTED FOR MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME TO SEE THE NEEDLE MOVE.

if you do you WILL burn out your gauges
I assumed my IVR is okay because my fuel gauge works fine. I'll try the test outlined above. Thanks.
 
I assumed my IVR is okay because my fuel gauge works fine. I'll try the test outlined above. Thanks
I agree I've good if fuel gauge works properly.

Then only 3 possibilities.
Sender
wiring/connections
Gauge
 
Add a few more. bad connection at the harness pin to the pc board trace, Clean, flux, with electronics compatible flux and re-solder. Corrosion at the gauge nuts-- loosen/ tighten them a few times

Try disconnecting the sender and solidly grounding the wire, then cycle the key and watch the gauge. It should immediately peg with key turned to run. Do not leave it powered for long. If so, sender. DO NOT overtighten sender. Could also be corrosion in the bulkhead connector for that wire.
 
I have had multiple bad temp senders. The new ones are crap. Took out a bad one and put in a new bad one. Learned to check them with an ohmmeter before and after installing.

I bought a Mopar one from the dealer. That solved my issues.
 
I agree I've good if fuel gauge works properly.

Then only 3 possibilities.
Sender
wiring/connections
Gauge
I know my vom doesn't lie, so the wiring is probably good, except I will take a closer look at the gauge nut connections. I'm waiting for a helper to come along to perform the peg test you outlined.
Mike69 got me thinking about my Rockauto sourced sensor. Maybe it's bad, even though I just put it in a few weeks ago. Do dealers still sell those? I appreciate all the help.
 
I know my vom doesn't lie, so the wiring is probably good
VOM don't lie but they can mislead. (probably not in the current range the gauges draw, BUT...)

(Numbers only for illustration)

You have a wire that has 19 strands and it can carry 10 amps you put a VOM on the end and you get 12V and 0 ohms resistance end to end. Take that same wire and attach an 8amp load to the end, the 12V is now 11V and you calculate the resistance of the wire (V/A = Ohm) 1V/8A = 0.125 Ohms.

You have the same wire but 18 of the 19 strands are broken but you don't know that at this point. It should be able to carry 10 amps you put a VOM on the end and you get 12V and 0 ohms resistance end to end. Take the damages wire and attach an 8amp load to the end, the 12V is now 3V and you calculate the resistance of the wire (V/A = Ohm) 9V/8A = 1.125 Ohms.

The thinner the wire the less current it can carry and when it tries to carry high current its resistance increases. A VOM measures voltage with no load and resistance with such a tiny amount of current about any wire size you can encounter will be negligible.

except I will take a closer look at the gauge nut connections
Be careful there. I destroyed an otherwise perfect gauge because the nut on the stud was too stiff to turn of easily and I spun the stud just trying to remove the stamped nut. NOW what I do is take 2 regular nuts and put them on the top of the shaft and jam them together. I hold them while turning the stamped nut. And don't use abrasives on the cir board traces, it starts a place for corrosion to develop, a pencil erasure will clean up the contact pads great
I'm waiting for a helper to come along to perform the peg test you outlined.
you can do it alone as 67Dart 273 noted. key off set up the jumpers. then get in the car and turn the key to run, watch for gauge movement then turn it off.

Mike69 got me thinking about my Rockauto sourced sensor. Maybe it's bad, even though I just put it in a few weeks ago.
you can check it in 2 ways.
  1. measure the senders resistance with your VOM with the engine cold and then as the engine warms up. Use an infrared temp gun aimed at the base of the sender, not the manifold but the actual sender. keep measuring and record the values. greater than 70 Ohms ( 70 to 300 Ohms) is low temp cold engine, 23 Ohms would be about normal operating temp 160-200, 10 ohms is High (OH **** the engine just puked coolant high)
  2. remove the sender and get a pot on the stove filled with room temp water, suspend the sender pickup in the water (not the entire sender) hook up a ground wire and then measure resistance between where the sender wire connects and the ground. with a candy thermometer, turn on the heat to high and record the temp and resistance as the temp rises. you should get about the same results as above
Do dealers still sell those?
They probably do BUT are the same manufacturer as aftermarket from the parts store. I bought a thermostat from dealer and it was an AutoRad thermostat with the same markings as the parts store but 5.00 more. I bought a steering wheel clock spring from the auto parts store and it had the exact markings as the OEM I pulled out.




the temp GAUGE sender is 2426458

The temp SWITCH sender is 3744253 (if you trust the hand written note)


1744557721311.png


Googling the part number has many results and I suspect Amazon or your local parts store will do the same.

1744557910801.png
 
Senders may be different now with crap imports, but I believe the BIGGEST PROBLEM with senders is OVERTIGHTening them.

Troubleshooting with an ohmeter is poor procedure, as Dana67 pointed out.

There is a time and place for ohms tests, but use them for a first quick test, and then confirm with other tests. Ohm readings are VERY suspect when dealing with low resistance circuits, and vehicle circuits mostly are.

I ALWAYS, if I can, diagnose with power on the suspect, if possible, and go with other means. One way is to substitute known resistance in the gauge sender circuit, so you can figure out if the sender is part of the problem.

c-3826-jpg-jpg-jpg.1715537911
 
Thanks for taking the time to write-up all that awesome info. Very gracious. I love learning this stuff.
VOM don't lie but they can mislead. (probably not in the current range the gauges draw, BUT...)

(Numbers only for illustration)

You have a wire that has 19 strands and it can carry 10 amps you put a VOM on the end and you get 12V and 0 ohms resistance end to end. Take that same wire and attach an 8amp load to the end, the 12V is now 11V and you calculate the resistance of the wire (V/A = Ohm) 1V/8A = 0.125 Ohms.

You have the same wire but 18 of the 19 strands are broken but you don't know that at this point. It should be able to carry 10 amps you put a VOM on the end and you get 12V and 0 ohms resistance end to end. Take the damages wire and attach an 8amp load to the end, the 12V is now 3V and you calculate the resistance of the wire (V/A = Ohm) 9V/8A = 1.125 Ohms.

The thinner the wire the less current it can carry and when it tries to carry high current its resistance increases. A VOM measures voltage with no load and resistance with such a tiny amount of current about any wire size you can encounter will be negligible.


Be careful there. I destroyed an otherwise perfect gauge because the nut on the stud was too stiff to turn of easily and I spun the stud just trying to remove the stamped nut. NOW what I do is take 2 regular nuts and put them on the top of the shaft and jam them together. I hold them while turning the stamped nut. And don't use abrasives on the cir board traces, it starts a place for corrosion to develop, a pencil erasure will clean up the contact pads great

you can do it alone as 67Dart 273 noted. key off set up the jumpers. then get in the car and turn the key to run, watch for gauge movement then turn it off.


you can check it in 2 ways.
  1. measure the senders resistance with your VOM with the engine cold and then as the engine warms up. Use an infrared temp gun aimed at the base of the sender, not the manifold but the actual sender. keep measuring and record the values. greater than 70 Ohms ( 70 to 300 Ohms) is low temp cold engine, 23 Ohms would be about normal operating temp 160-200, 10 ohms is High (OH **** the engine just puked coolant high)
  2. remove the sender and get a pot on the stove filled with room temp water, suspend the sender pickup in the water (not the entire sender) hook up a ground wire and then measure resistance between where the sender wire connects and the ground. with a candy thermometer, turn on the heat to high and record the temp and resistance as the temp rises. you should get about the same results as above

They probably do BUT are the same manufacturer as aftermarket from the parts store. I bought a thermostat from dealer and it was an AutoRad thermostat with the same markings as the parts store but 5.00 more. I bought a steering wheel clock spring from the auto parts store and it had the exact markings as the OEM I pulled out.




the temp GAUGE sender is 2426458

The temp SWITCH sender is 3744253 (if you trust the hand written note)


View attachment 1716392055

Googling the part number has many results and I suspect Amazon or your local parts store will do the same.

View attachment 1716392059

Senders may be different now with crap imports, but I believe the BIGGEST PROBLEM with senders is OVERTIGHTening them.

Troubleshooting with an ohmeter is poor procedure, as Dana67 pointed out.

There is a time and place for ohms tests, but use them for a first quick test, and then confirm with other tests. Ohm readings are VERY suspect when dealing with low resistance circuits, and vehicle circuits mostly are.

I ALWAYS, if I can, diagnose with power on the suspect, if possible, and go with other means. One way is to substitute known resistance in the gauge sender circuit, so you can figure out if the sender is part of the problem.

c-3826-jpg-jpg-jpg.1715537911
 
I have one of those L-M-H gauge testers I've used many times in the past. I don't know why I didn't think to use it on this temp gauge, but I will. Losing my memory I guess. Thanks for the reminder!
 
I had bad sensor right out of the box a few months ago. Resistance wouldn't drop when the sensor would heat up.
 
Update: When shorting the temp gauge lead the needle does shoot rapidly all the way to the right. Also, my sender reads 318 ohms cold engine. 24-28 ohms hot engine, depending on whether the t-stadt is open or closed. Technically, these readings are outside the parameters listed by Dana67, but close.
 
I don't usually do electrical, but here's how I have checked the temp sensors. Touch the bottom of the sensor to the positive battery post, take a test light
, and attach the wire clamp to the battery ground. Now touch the test light probe to the threaded end of the sensor. The probe light should barely be visible when cold, bright if hot. No light, no good.
 
I don't know if anyone mentioned it but I've heard that Teflon tape can mess with them. It is tapered pipe thread so that isn't needed.
 

"Ground" is a huge mistake in older cars made back then. Engineering should NEVER have depended on lamp shells, ECU and VR cases, or any other part of a component for ground return. Every one of them should have a dedicated pigtail. You'll notice that on modern cars, very few if any, components are grounded via the component shell or body. I still remember some years of '60s Chevs with part of the tail lights in the trunk, you always got an unpredictable light show out of them.
 
If it is reading greater than 100 ohms, it’s bad. Measure the new one out of the box and after you install it.

You can touch the sensor body and block with your ohmmeter if you are worried about grounds and see if they are connected. Unless you have a big pile of Teflon tape on it, it is usually not a problem.
 
. Also, my sender reads 318 ohms cold engine. 24-28 ohms hot engine, depending on whether the t-stadt is open or closed. Technically, these readings are outside the parameters listed by Dana67, but close
Those are spot on. 300 is greater than 73 so cold is anything greater than 73.

As for 24 to 28 that's as close to 1/2 scale you can get.

Run it?
 
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