TF Porting

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Earlie A

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Here's an interesting comparison of 4 tests on Trick Flow Ports. Two are with a 2.02 valve and two are with a 2.08 valve. There are many points to be made here, but I'll start with three.

First, look at test 1231 in green, which is a totally stock port. This port at 308 cfm is the highest flowing stock TF port I have tested. Most others I have tested peaked at 285-295. The next test, 1232 in black shows what happens when the pushrod pinch is opened from 2 sq inches to 2.3 sq inches. There were no other changes. Particularly note 0.300 lift, 0.400 lift and anything past 0.600 lift. The effect on high lift is contrary to normal (logical) thinking, but is a result of flow separation on the short side. Opening the pushrod pinch decreased the air velocity at the apex of the short turn, which increases pressure at that point (this is Bernoulli - higher velocity/lower pressure and vice versa). The higher pressure at the apex actually increases flow separation downstream, which shuts down the flow area and reduces flow. Put another way, opening the pushrod pinch made the turbulence on the short side increase causing less area for good flow. The Bernoulli principle and the effects of flow separation are important when trying to figure out what's going on in a port. Don't know if we'll be able to do it, but I would love to run a dyno test with only this change. I think the heads with the larger pushrod pinch would make more power, in spite of the flow curve looking much worse. When you hear the phrase 'the flow bench is lying to you', this is one of the reasons (even though the bench is giving perfectly good data).

Point two will be short. The change to a 2.08 valve along with deshrouding in the chamber and apex/short turn work really picks up the mid lift flow. The TF heads are really strong in the mid lift area. Part of this is the effect of the 'anti-swirl' port configuration. I think this configuration also limits high lift flow.

Point three is to compare test 1434 in red to test 1461 in purple. There were several changes to the port during this time, but most of them had to do with lowering and widening the apex to try to eliminate the nose-over or back-up in the flow curve (test 1434 peaks at 317 cfm, then noses over at higher lift). What I am trying to demonstrate here is what happens when the apex is lowered, the short turn is laid back and the corners of the apex are squared up. Curve 1461 is a 'prettier' curve, but would it outperform curve 1434? This is something else I would love to test.

Point four of three. Some (sometimes all) of the nose-over goes away when a manifold is attached to the heads instead of an entry plate.

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“Tall apex 2.08”
Taller than as delivered(as in added material there)?
Or just taller than the one you lowered/laid back?

Have you removed the swirl vane at any point yet?

What are the numbers like on the worst ootb TF port you’ve tested?

On the first set of 360-1’s I ported, they went turbulent up high, but calmed right down with the intake attached.
 
The ‘tall apex’ is just to differentiate it from the short apex. Even the tall apex is a good bit shorter than stock. Once the 2.08 valve was in and the pushrod pinch was opened, speed in the center of the short turn was over 500 fps. The tall apex is still 440 fps in the center. The short apex is still over 400.

I removed the swirl vein in port 1/8, but it’s been a couple of months ago. Best I remember the mid lift flow dropped a good bit and the high lift increased slightly. I hit water on that port so major progress stopped, although I still go back to it every now and then.

I’ll try to look at the numbers when I get to work in the morning.
 
I could cause some controversy posting my ported 240 heads flow numbers with a 2.550 height 1.300 vs your ported 190s.
There's a big difference in benches and software used.
I will say on the bench mine were flowed on a ooth box 240 head flowed 301 at peak flow.
Post away. It ain’t controversy if we’re learning.
 
“Tall apex 2.08”
Taller than as delivered(as in added material there)?
Or just taller than the one you lowered/laid back?

Have you removed the swirl vane at any point yet?

What are the numbers like on the worst ootb TF port you’ve tested?

On the first set of 360-1’s I ported, they went turbulent up high, but calmed right down with the intake attached.
It's not really "taller", it's a tighter (smaller) radius due to the larger valve and consequenly opening up the bowl.
 
I could cause some controversy posting my ported 240 heads flow numbers with a 2.550 height 1.300 vs your ported 190s.
There's a big difference in benches and software used.
I will say on the bench mine were flowed on a ooth box 240 head flowed 301 at peak flow.
I’ll be the naysayer here……..
A different type of head, tested on a different brand bench(that uses a different operating system)…….that would just be info not pertinent to this discussion and more suited for its own thread……imo.
But…….it’s not my thread.
 
I’ll be the naysayer here……..
A different type of head, tested on a different brand bench(that uses a different operating system)…….that info would just be info not pertinent to this discussion and more suited for its own thread……imo.
But…….it’s not my thread.
I agree with what you are saying, but I like to see other data.

PBR and I would share some data, sometimes publicly, sometimes privately. We compared stock Speedmaster, Edelbrock and Trick Flow flow numbers. My bench and his agreed quite well. That doesn’t mean either one was correct, but to me it made communication easier.
 
I see this thread as a step by step analysis of porting processes and their evaluations on a specific head…..in this case a TF190 SB head.
Especially at this early stage of the thread, sidetracking to discussions of results from a different bench, and a different head……..is just a distraction.

But, it’s your thread…..carry on.
 
It sure is nice to see two mature individuals resolve a (small) conflict without insults and unnecessary language. Thanks guys.
 
It's not really "taller", it's a tighter (smaller) radius due to the larger valve and consequenly opening up the bowl.
It could be taller, which is why I asked for clarification.

I’m pretty sure in one of EA’s other porting threads, where he was trying to sort out a SM SSR, he added some epoxy to the SSR.
I was wondering if he had gone in that direction on this head….or not.
 
My takeaway up to this point is, it’s not likely someone is going to “fluff up” a TF190 and end up with a head that ends up flowing 305+ without turbulence and a curve that’s solid thru .700” lift.

Although, honestly……..I wouldn’t even expect that out of a 190cc SBM non-offset rocker port.
 
My takeaway up to this point is, it’s not likely someone is going to “fluff up” a TF190 and end up with a head that ends up flowing 305+ without turbulence and a curve that’s solid thru .700” lift.

Although, honestly……..I wouldn’t even expect that out of a 190cc SBM non-offset rocker port.
Never say never, then again more than likely. We all have fat fetched ideas and wishfull thinking.
 
I guess I didn’t really get across where I was going there……..which was………

EA has spent considerable time and effort trying to sort them out……..probably more time than he’d have hoped……. for where he’s at with them to this point.
It doesn’t appear there is really much low hanging fruit with them.

Needless to say, I’m looking forward to seeing how some this shakes out in the head shootout on the dyno.
 
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I guess I didn’t really get across where I was going there……..which was………

EA has spent considerable time and effort trying to sort them out……..probably more time than he’d have hoped……. for where he’s at with them to this point.
It doesn’t appear there is really much low hanging fruit with them.
Next step, cut the intake flange face, weld up the pushrod holes and use an offset rocker.
 
My takeaway up to this point is, it’s not likely someone is going to “fluff up” a TF190 and end up with a head that ends up flowing 305+ without turbulence and a curve that’s solid thru .700” lift.

Although, honestly……..I wouldn’t even expect that out of a 190cc SBM non-offset rocker port.
My experience so far is that any standard location pushrod, standard low port SBM head will get increasingly inefficient after 290-300 cfm. There are just too many tight turns and area changes to navigate. Gains above 300 are an exercise in compromise. You gotta give up something to get something else.

PBR used to say that the pushrod pinch is not the problem on these heads because it’s good for 330 cfm. I understand what he was sayin’ but I’m starting to disagree. That pinch is a problem. It’s a big problem. I want an opening as high as possible and as wide as possible.
 
By the way, that TF port with the 2.08 valve is around 210-212 cc now. Most of that additional volume was needed to get flow past 0.550 back up to a respectable number. If the pinch was left smaller I think the port could be left smaller. I’m going on the assumption that the larger pinch is needed for power levels 600 or over.
 
PBR used to say that the pushrod pinch is not the problem on these heads because it’s good for 330 cfm. I understand what he was sayin’ but I’m starting to disagree.
John only shared what he wanted too, he left some on the table for competitive reasons.
Basically he was giving a generic version of his work and the info he shared, time ran out on him before he could really put any real effort into the Trick Flow head.
 
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John only shared what he wanted too, he left some on the table for competitive reasons.
I could not agree more. He put a lot of information out there, for which I am quite thankful. There are little clues posted throughout his writings, but rarely all in one place.
 
John only shared what he wanted too, he left some on the table for competitive reasons.
Basically he was giving a generic version of his work and the info he shared, time ran at on him before he could really put any real effort into the Trick Flow head.
There's only so much anyone could do to that head
 
The op isn't done yet.
Right, but I'm saying with what their giving out as a port theres only so far.
Most every n/a 190 build I've seen go across the Dyno was around 580 HP. 408 cubes
1 set of ported 190s had a big difference 660 HP.
I didn't get to see inside them but was guaranteed they were maxed out with a ported victor intake up top. 340/416 cube.
Obviously camshaft differences too.
 
Ya I bet if an decent sized engine trying to make peak power in the 6,000+ rpm they will love that 2.3" sq.
 
My experience so far is that any standard location pushrod, standard low port SBM head will get increasingly inefficient after 290-300 cfm. There are just too many tight turns and area changes to navigate. Gains above 300 are an exercise in compromise. You gotta give up something to get something else.

PBR used to say that the pushrod pinch is not the problem on these heads because it’s good for 330 cfm. I understand what he was sayin’ but I’m starting to disagree. That pinch is a problem. It’s a big problem. I want an opening as high as possible and as wide as possible.
From what I understand 280-310 cfm can make all the power most would want from this type of head but it's the port volume and cross sections that's holding these engines back from turning enough rpm to make the power, coming from NON porter/builder. But that's my take.
 
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