the truth/opinions about cams

[joec]

You guys are missing the point . Its not about customs or whose company is better its about comparing company a to company b with the same cam specs. My statement was your not going to notice a difference between a mopar grind or an engle given the same specs.So when some one says use a jones vs a comp vs a lunati , you are probably not going to notice a difference .

 

[aaronk785]

Not true. You can have the same numbers at .050 and the same lift and have two totally different lobes.

 

[aaronk785]

66jim. That's exactly what happened to our Kansas city track. Developers came in and started wining and the city saw more tax dollars to be made of houses than the track. End of story. Plus the city flat out lied to the community saying they needed the land for a park. Guess what. Still no park.

 

[12many]

 

[yellow rose]

YR now why you gotta be like that? (we all know youve walked across the desert
swam the ocean,been on the moon) but my post was not serious when i said 50 hp. .My point was that on a street cam with same at .050 same lsa you are not gonna find a bunch of hp. as PRH said. As far as reading articles what I meant was I wasnt trying to learn but pointing out the crap ex.(if you get a racer brown cam vs comp your gonna find a million hp because he said so)just not so. Im talking street lobes not max dwell .
AS I said apples to apples same .050 same lsa . Point was so many fall for the bullcrap .

Evidently you did NOT read what I write. So I'll type this nice and slow so you get it.

It's more important that you are on the same page with a cam grinder than the actual cam you end up with. Does that make sense?

If I call Comp, I don't have enough buying power to call and get Tim Cole every time (if he's even at Comp any more). I get some joker who can use a catalog, just like me. That's pulling a rabbit out of your ***.

When I was buying 5-6 cams from Cam Motion a month, I dealt with the same guy, every time. We did some testing with different companies at the time, and because I worked with the same guy at CM for so long, and I was getting a different guy every time I called some other cam companies. And you could see the results.

That's why I always say to CALL and TALK to a cam guy. A text or email is NOT the same. Just not even close. Have a CONVERSATION. Ask questions. Question things that don't make sense to you. If the dude doesn't like that, hang up and call another.

That's what I'm saying. It's not marketing hype or any of that crap. It's decades of experience.

 

[yellow rose]

I was working in the parts store back when Comp Cams first started so we sold a lot of old school cams. Before Comp, we sold a lot of Crane and TRW. Back in those days there wasn't a lot of affordable valve train components. Most of the cam companies screwed with duration to make power and didn't mess with much lift, especially for street cams. The manufacturers had the same mentality. They needed a combination that would run the numbers but last until the warranty was up. Design a cam with some duration to get the job done but not a ton of lift so it was easy on the valve train.

CLASSIC!!! I love it. So true. I remember when the first guy local to me tried a Comp cam. He was so happy he couldn't contain himself.

He picked up .020 on his lift, took 20 degrees off his seat to seat timing and the car was quicker, faster and more consistent. And, he claimed it was easier on his valve springs.

That was 1979 I think. Could have been 1978 but either way, same thing.

He switched to a more agressive lobe and went quicker.

Comp was just starting out and it was a different company back then.

 

[toolmanmike]

Then you're a quarter low!

I started working at the parts store (see post #23) just about the time when 3/4 race cams went by the way side. To the OP, cams with similar specs will not have a large difference in performance. I am far from an expert but common sense tells me that your butt dyno won't tell the difference. Of course everybody's cam makes more power. They can sell more that way.

 

[toolmanmike]

Just to sidetrack, those were the days. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[RustyRatRod]

YR now why you gotta be like that? (we all know youve walked across the desert
swam the ocean,been on the moon) but my post was not serious when i said 50 hp. .My point was that on a street cam with same at .050 same lsa you are not gonna find a bunch of hp. as PRH said. As far as reading articles what I meant was I wasnt trying to learn but pointing out the crap ex.(if you get a racer brown cam vs comp your gonna find a million hp because he said so)just not so. Im talking street lobes not max dwell .
AS I said apples to apples same .050 same lsa . Point was so many fall for the bullcrap .

EXACTLY so. Which is why I always argue there's nothing WRONG with an old school grind. It's all a part of a combination.

 

[yellow rose]

You guys are missing the point . Its not about customs or whose company is better its about comparing company a to company b with the same cam specs. My statement was your not going to notice a difference between a mopar grind or an engle given the same specs.So when some one says use a jones vs a comp vs a lunati , you are probably not going to notice a difference .

You STILL don't get it. Do you THINK that a cam in the catalog was developed just for your combo? Is your engine/chassis/drive train exactly what the book calls for?

I don't care if it is a VooDoo grind, it's a COMPROMISE unless you have exactly the engine/chassis/drive train as the lobes were developed for.

Who knows...the lobes could be EXACTLY what you need, but the catalog cam is on the Comp de facto 110 LSA. That changes everything. Not the 110 LSA, but the fact that the event timing is changed just to get to a 110 LSA. Maybe you need a 112 LSA. Or a 106 LSA. With the lobes on the catalog cam.

You don't know because you are stuck with what's in the catalog.

FWIW a company with cams on the shelves makes way more money on those cams than they do on a customs cam. So they try their best to sell the shelf cams.

Instead of coming on here and THINKING you KNOW something and closing your mind to learning, maybe you should slow down, unlearn what you THINK you know and not assume what you assume and you may end up with a better product.

Or, keep doing what you are doing, and saying what you are saying and living with something that's not up to any real standard of perfoamce for every dollar you spend.

Ignrorance is bliss.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You guys are missing the point . Its not about customs or whose company is better its about comparing company a to company b with the same cam specs. My statement was your not going to notice a difference between a mopar grind or an engle given the same specs.So when some one says use a jones vs a comp vs a lunati , you are probably not going to notice a difference .

Well, IF all of the cams from the different companies are CLOSE in specs, I'm going to agree with you. Even if say, the Mopar grind you made example of was ground to take advantage of the .903 diameter lifter, IMO, as long as it is close in spec of valve events with "all the rest" "ABOUT" the only place you'll see a difference is in the dyno room.

Now if I've missed your point, let me know. But I THINK that's what you meant. If it is, I agree. Which is why it dumbfounds me that so many people fuss and fight over camshaft choices.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Just to sidetrack, those were the days. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

View attachment 1715451062

I love these pictures. I wish you would make a thread and post them all. This is one I've not seen before.

 

[yellow rose]

EXACTLY so. Which is why I always argue there's nothing WRONG with an old school grind. It's all a part of a combination.

Because the old school lobes do almost everything everyone HATES.

Like big slow ramps, that have a long time for reversion at overlap AND intake closing.

Those slow lobes are dirty because of that reversion. Those long, slow lobes kill bottom end, the EXACT thing most "street" guys cry their eyes out about.

Those long, slow lobes kill idle vacuum, require a higher engine idle speed just to maintain an idle. All things the majority of the guys who post here snivel about the most!!!!!!

So they keep buying the junk, and then ***** because they didn't get what they want. They could have had a cleaner, slower idle speed, an idle that doesn't stink (that's also about your carb tune up as lobes but that would need to be another thread).

They could have had an engine that actually made power higher in the RPM band that what it does, but they decided that all cams are the same, all the numbers are the same. And they all ***** all the time.

That's what this thread is, and the OP is so SMART, he doesn't need to learn anything.

The Dunning-Kruger syndrome applies very well here.

Here is an example that explains in numbers why a quicker lobe, with the CORRECT EVENT TIMING will always be better (unless you like the above situations and love to *****).

My cam is 280 seat to seat and 255 at .050 on a 105 ICL. Those numbers didn't come out of a hat, or out of a catalog. It came about from several long phone conversations, my flow bench numbers and several more phone conversations.

Look through most any cam catalog look for cams with 255 at .050 and see what the seat timing is. You'll find most of those lobes will be around 300 seat to seat. That's 20 degrees SLOWER than the lobes I'm using, yet at .050, I'm caught up to the slower lobes, and I'd bet by .200 lift I'm quicker yet. That means that I can run enough cam to shift at 7000 with my heads and not lose the bottom end and make it sloppy and nasty to drive. That explains the 105 LSA. My heads need some help, and that 105 puts the middle RPM power where it needs to be. It makes more power in the gear change.

So there is a reason for the quicker lobes.

If that doesn't matter to someone, they should do what they want. But don't come on here and shoot off your mouth and tell everyone what you don't know is wrong.

 

[joec]

You STILL don't get it. Do you THINK that a cam in the catalog was developed just for your combo? Is your engine/chassis/drive train exactly what the book calls for?

I don't care if it is a VooDoo grind, it's a COMPROMISE unless you have exactly the engine/chassis/drive train as the lobes were developed for.

Who knows...the lobes could be EXACTLY what you need, but the catalog cam is on the Comp de facto 110 LSA. That changes everything. Not the 110 LSA, but the fact that the event timing is changed just to get to a 110 LSA. Maybe you need a 112 LSA. Or a 106 LSA. With the lobes on the catalog cam.

You don't know because you are stuck with what's in the catalog.

FWIW a company with cams on the shelves makes way more money on those cams than they do on a customs cam. So they try their best to sell the shelf cams.

Instead of coming on here and THINKING you KNOW something and closing your mind to learning, maybe you should slow down, unlearn what you THINK you know and not assume what you assume and you may end up with a better product.

Or, keep doing what you are doing, and saying what you are saying and living with something that's not up to any real standard of perfoamce for every dollar you spend.

Ignrorance is bliss.

You know YR YOU must have missed reading comprehension I Dont need a recommendation it was about comparing lobes I dont want a recommendation or comparing between different .050 or lsa . I remember when you first started your lying crap you didnt even know who bullet was or probably cammotion also hated comps junk and would never use them.My, in a few short years how you have grown . Look back pal and call me a liar.

n

 

[RustyRatRod]

Because the old school lobes do almost everything everyone HATES.

Like big slow ramps, that have a long time for reversion at overlap AND intake closing.

Those slow lobes are dirty because of that reversion. Those long, slow lobes kill bottom end, the EXACT thing most "street" guys cry their eyes out about.

Those long, slow lobes kill idle vacuum, require a higher engine idle speed just to maintain an idle. All things the majority of the guys who post here snivel about the most!!!!!!

So they keep buying the junk, and then ***** because they didn't get what they want. They could have had a cleaner, slower idle speed, an idle that doesn't stink (that's also about your carb tune up as lobes but that would need to be another thread).

They could have had an engine that actually made power higher in the RPM band that what it does, but they decided that all cams are the same, all the numbers are the same. And they all ***** all the time.

That's what this thread is, and the OP is so SMART, he doesn't need to learn anything.

The Dunning-Kruger syndrome applies very well here.

Here is an example that explains in numbers why a quicker lobe, with the CORRECT EVENT TIMING will always be better (unless you like the above situations and love to *****).

My cam is 280 seat to seat and 255 at .050 on a 105 ICL. Those numbers didn't come out of a hat, or out of a catalog. It came about from several long phone conversations, my flow bench numbers and several more phone conversations.

Look through most any cam catalog look for cams with 255 at .050 and see what the seat timing is. You'll find most of those lobes will be around 300 seat to seat. That's 20 degrees SLOWER than the lobes I'm using, yet at .050, I'm caught up to the slower lobes, and I'd bet by .200 lift I'm quicker yet. That means that I can run enough cam to shift at 7000 with my heads and not lose the bottom end and make it sloppy and nasty to drive. That explains the 105 LSA. My heads need some help, and that 105 puts the middle RPM power where it needs to be. It makes more power in the gear change.

So there is a reason for the quicker lobes.

If that doesn't matter to someone, they should do what they want. But don't come on here and shoot off your mouth and tell everyone what you don't know is wrong.

Simply make a GOOD choice with either the old or new tech and the engine will perform fine. A 100% street driven engine does not NEED the modern grinds. Can it benefit? Of course. But who wants a noisy valve train all "that" can create? Some don't mind, but some do. I know I would had I chosen a hydraulic camshaft. Yes, there's a time and place for everything. I agree. The modern grinds surely have their place and work very well, but to make a blanket statement that ALL old school grinds cannot run well is plain stupid. Stop it.

 

[yellow rose]

You know YR YOU must have missed reading comprehension I Dont need a recommendation it was about comparing lobes I dont want a recommendation or comparing between different .050 or lsa . I remember when you first started your lying crap you didnt even know who bullet was or probably cammotion also hated comps junk and would never use them.My, in a few short years how you have grown . Look back pal and call me a liar.

n

Prove it. I because a Cam Motion dealer in 1999 when I bought my flow bench and I was using Brookshires grinds on my W2 stuff by 1987.

So you are a liar.

Prove me wrong. In fact, the shop I retired out of was using custom cams from another company. I was retailing CM cams for LESS than he was paying his "super" cam guy for his cams. And it was damn near impossible to see a custom cam at those prices.

So I called CM, the owner called his "super" guy and we gave both companies the exact same info. The cams came back with close but not identical numbers.

The CM grind beat it up all over. Everywhere. We spent two days on the dyno between the two and didn't make a dime for it. We had to know which one was going to do what we wanted done.

When it was all said and done, we decided to give the "super" cam guy another shot. So we sent him the dyno numbers. And he was pissed. He claimed we were stupid and if we weren't stupid his cam would outperform the CM grind.

That was fall 2003. He hasn't used "super" cam guy since.

So WTF you are talking about I have no idea.


Edit for the liar. I still have the last Ultradyne cam I bought from Brookshire. It's 288/296 at .050, .640/640 lift on a 109 LSA.

I stopped using Harold because he couldn't get it through his head that .640 lift was killing my power and I wanted more lift and a quicker lobe. He wouldn't do it. That was when I bought my first Cam Motion cam. 1996 IIRC. So eat my root.

 

[yellow rose]

Simply make a GOOD choice with either the old or new tech and the engine will perform fine. A 100% street driven engine does not NEED the modern grinds. Can it benefit? Of course. But who wants a noisy valve train all "that" can create? Some don't mind, but some do. I know I would had I chosen a hydraulic camshaft. Yes, there's a time and place for everything. I agree. The modern grinds surely have their place and work very well, but to make a blanket statement that ALL old school grinds cannot run well is plain stupid. Stop it.

Glad you brought this up Rusty, because I hear this all the time. My cam, with those lobes, lashes at .014/.016 hot.

It is exceptionally quiet. In fact, I've had some HR engines make more noise.

FWIW, I never said a word about lash noise when I bought the cam. That tight lash was just what I got. It's very quiet for what it is.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Glad you brought this up Rusty, because I hear this all the time. My cam, with those lobes, lashes at .014/.016 hot.

It is exceptionally quiet. In fact, I've had some HR engines make more noise.

FWIW, I never said a word about lash noise when I bought the cam. That tight lash was just what I got. It's very quiet for what it is.

I'm not talkin about LASH, dummy. I was referring to hydraulic cams that get noisy with quick ramps. Plenty of people right on this forum have complained about it. They're not for everybody, and you damn well know that. Now I am AGREEING with you here really, so stop bein a tallywhacker.

 

[yellow rose]

I'm not talkin about LASH, dummy. I was referring to hydraulic cams that get noisy with quick ramps. Plenty of people right on this forum have complained about it. They're not for everybody, and you damn well know that. Now I am AGREEING with you here really, so stop bein a tallywhacker.

LOL. My bad. I almost never use a hydraulic cam anymore. So my thinking was solid lifters!!!

 

[RustyRatRod]

LOL. My bad. I almost never use a hydraulic cam anymore. So my thinking was solid lifters!!!

I know, and I slam agree with that too. Although with this big block build I am scheming, it will be hydraulic, simply because there's no room for headers and it's going to be so mild.

 

[joec]

YR theres no need for you to hit the disagree button with my last post.You at the time did not even know that all of ud harolds lobes were bought by bullet . So much for telling harold what to do you must have had his personal cell number.Did I tell you that I told joey amato in his parts store if he put a wing on the back of his dragster it would break records . Guess what he did it and it did so he must have heard me. HA. So you can call me whatever but if they look back the truth is out there .I was kind of hoping you wouldnt reply to this thread because of the bs. and as usual you know it all . It is a free forum. P.S Mr Crane (I called him Harvey) at the time, when I was buying at least a thousand a month,said he couldnt sell to me as cheap as he was you because he knew your 127 a month was more impotent because your social status was better.






m

 

[yellow rose]

YR theres no need for you to hit the disagree button with my last post.You at the time did not even know that all of ud harolds lobes were bought by bullet . So much for telling harold what to do you must have had his personal cell number.Did I tell you that I told joey amato in his parts store if he put a wing on the back of his dragster it would break records . Guess what he did it and it did so he must have heard me. HA. So you can call me whatever but if they look back the truth is out there .I was kind of hoping you wouldnt reply to this thread because of the bs. and as usual you know it all . It is a free forum. P.S Mr Crane (I called him Harvey) at the time, when I was buying at least a thousand a month,said he couldnt sell to me as cheap as he was you because he knew your 127 a month was more impotent because your social status was better.






m

WTF are you talking about? I knew bullet had some of Harold's grinds. I don't know he did some Comp lobes.

I know you are jealous of me, but that's because you are a pussy.

And I suspect you are probably from Canada, or have a buddy up there who can't hone a cylinder.

Buh-bye *****.

 

[383Scampman]

It's a bit different when you end up dealing with a city bureaucracy and their lawyers who won't go by their own written laws, and they collude with other tracks to coerce or downright threaten people who have no dog in the fight to use their leverage to kill anything moving forward to increase the use of the dragstrip.

I could type for 2 hours and not hit even the high points about how filthy CART was. Just FILTY.

I detest politicians. I'm related to a couple of them. Working with them is impossible unless you are a boot licking quisling.

Yep, I'm not a fan of owing to any track much any more. BTDT.

I will volunteer for my community projects anytime . I refuse to run for an elected office . Politicians lie for a living . It is our job to force them to do their job . example : my property taxes increased 41% in the last 6 months (crazy) the pols said nothing about it being offensive until they were threatened with court action .

 

[yellow rose]

I will volunteer for my community projects anytime . I refuse to run for an elected office . Politicians lie for a living . It is our job to force them to do their job . example : my property taxes increased 41% in the last 6 months (crazy) the pols said nothing about it being offensive until they were threatened with court action .

The fact that the lie right to your FACE that gets me. In 1985 I went to a city council meeting (Portland Oregon) to discuss what was going on at Portland International Raceway (a City of Portland PARK and therefore, must follow ALL park rules) and I have voted for this jack *** named Dick Bogle. Should have known better, as he was a news anchor for many years.

Anyway, I was watching him from a distance and he was saying all the right things...the park should be used as it was intended and built...the park is governed by park law...all that crap when he was running.

Hadn't been in office very long and he just straight lied. So I called him a liar on the record and I got tossed from the meeting. Even though before I called him a liar, I named his speeches where he said all he did.

During a break in the meeting I was standing out in the hallway and a different council member came out to talk to me. Her name was Mildred Schwab. Gruff old lady. She told me and two of my friends with me we were wasting our time. She said that not only were we fighting big money from out of state, we had a rat in our ranks.

Took me 9 years to finally get who the RAT was, but she wasn't lying. About that at least.

I can recall dozens of situations like this, where you are lied to, right to your face. Misplaced mail, phone calls ignored, making an appointment, taking the time off work to be there, and have the lying puke lie and claim something came up. Just on and on.

And when you get close to getting something done, they use peer pressure to force you to stop what your doing. And it works. Especially if you still want to race yourself and not get your *** beat if you show up at a track.

Yup. It takes a mighty cool thing to get me to a track. I had a butt full of that a long time ago.

 

[joec]

Hey in my world by-by means your gone . I guess we cant be that lucky .Now go start your own thread dirtbag .

 

[yellow rose]

Hey in my world by-by means your gone . I guess we cant be that lucky .Now go start your own thread dirtbag .

Still waiting for you to prove me a liar.

I won't hold my breath.