Tie rods, steering and disc brakes???

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Dor-Dor68!

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Hey everyone,

I have a 1968 Dodge Dart 270 with a /6, 9" manual drum brakes and with power steering...pretty much all stock. I just started working on the suspension, steering and going to do a drum to disc brake conversion. The future goal would be a 400hp car that can carve corners and handle extremely well, with possibly some autocross.

What i just ordered and received are some QA1 upper(large ball joint) and lower control arms, QA1 tie rod sleeves(9/16), and their brand of cam bolt adjusters.
I need to order some tie rod ends, but I'm unsure if I should get 9/16 or 11/16s. Im assuming I currently have 9/16, and from the looks of everything down there, the steering components are all the original parts from the assembly line when it was first put together. So far I might go with Proforged and order the tie rods from them.
But please feel free to recommend me manufacturers or companies that u would fully trust.

So my question(s) is/are....should I order 11/16s as an upgrade?? How would this affect and or change the future goals with the car(either good or bad)? Only thing I know(please correct me if im wrong) is that 11/16 tie rod ends came in the bigger body mopars or 73-76 mopars.
I'd also like to get a new idler arm, fast ratio pitman arm and should I get a 73-76 drag link. Mancini Racing offers this: MRE - Steering Center Drag Link
Would the the fast ratio pitman arm be direct bolt on and not have a bad affect on things?? What Sizes??

Lastly, I looking at one of Wilwoods big bolt pattern 11" disc brake conversion kits: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-140-11022-dr
but its not a full complete kit, id have to get brake lines, a new MC, proportioning valve and distribution block, and possibly new pindles and knuckles. Should go Manual vs. Power brakes??
I've always wanted Wilwood brakes in my car since I was a kid, so this time im going to get em and I also like the fact these ones have 4 piston calipers.
If you guys have recommendations on the brakes, a better idea or what to do...please let me know.

Thank you so much for those that take the time to read this...and im happy to come here and know that the FABO community can lend a helping hand to someone trying to learn and wrench one their own car.

Thanks again, and wish you all Happy Holidays!
 
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The 11/16” tie rod sleeves used to be the “go to” for handling cars, but that was when the stock split sleeve adjusters were being used. With the aftermarket tubular sleeves now available the change to 11/16” tie rod ends isn’t really necessary, the split sleeve adjusters were the source of the flex.

The only down side to the 11/16” though is usually some additional cost, and depending on how close you’re going to run your wheels to the outer tire rods possibly some loss of clearance or backspace on the wheels.

You don’t want a fast ratio pitman arm on an A-body. They were designed for the TA and AAR cars, and on an A body leave you with pretty much no options for headers. You’d be much better off replacing the stock power steering with a 14:1 Borgeson set up.

For brakes, you want DoctorDiff. Wilwood is overpriced and overrated. You can run DoctorDiff’s stage II kit with 11.75”’rotors and 2.75” piston calipers, it’ll cost less and perform better than the Wilwoods. Plus Cass at DoctorDiff can help you with your entire set up.

As far as manual vs power brakes, I prefer manuals on an A-body with a 15/16” bore master cylinder. Better feel than the power brakes, more room in the engine compartment and less stuff to break.
 
Hey thank you @72bluNblu !!

I appreciate you giving some insight, so I'll be just fine running 9/16 for the tie rod ends then. Glad to hear I don't have to send back and exchange the sleeves I just got.

Anywhere u recommend i should look into that borgeson?

And yeah, ive read many good things from Doctordiff on here, so I'll definitely give Cass a call and see what they can hook me up with.

I'll most likely stay manual then, I definitely want to feel in control when im braking down the road.

Would u have any recommendations on wheel and tires set up, have read that max tire would be around a 15" wheel with 255 even with offset springs ...I have a ford 8.8 posi that I need shorten and rebuild to put as my new rear end.

Thank you again, I truly appreciate your input my friend!
 
@BergmanAutoCraft for the Borgeson power steering, Peter has everything you need.

The 9/16” tie rod ends and solid sleeves are fine, I run mine with 275/35/18’s up front. I’d you’ve already got them I’d just keep those.

With 15’s and a Dart and you use the 1/2” spring offset in the back you may be able to get 275/60/15’s in there, depends on your cars body tolerances and your willingness to do quarter lip trimming.

In the front though about the best you’ll do is 225/60/15’s on 15x7’s, and there’s really no tires worth running in AutoX available if you’re looking to do anything more than just have some fun. You’d need to go up to 17’s or 18’s to run wider tires up front with decent tire compounds.
 
I'll definitely give BergmanAutocaft a look...one of my friends actually mentioned he was looking at their stuff not that long ago.

So I'll be fine with 9/16s, but if it was you, would u prefer 11/16?

It definitely be awesome to run some 18s on my Dart up in the front...howd you achieve 18s on yours?


And as for the back wheels, to also achieve 275s, would it be a 15x8 with that 1/2" offset and lip trimming??
 

I still run 9/16” tie rods. The ends are more than strong enough, and the solid adjusters now are much more durable than the original stuff. I wouldn’t bother with returning it for the zero difference you’ll actually notice.

I run 18x9’s +35’s up front with 275/35/18’s. I run FMJ spindles with DoctorDiff’s 13” viper brake kit, which widens the track about 5mm vs the 73+ Mopar disks. I run a B-body 8 3/4 in the back with a 1/2” spring offset, 18x10’s +38 and 295/40/18’s. But I’ve got a Duster so they’ve got an extra 1” of room in the back vs the Darts and I’ve done a some pretty significant pushing and rolling of the quarter lip.

On a Dart with a 1/2” spring offset and some quarter lip work 275’s have been done, on a 15” rim that would need to be a 15x8, yes.
IMG_7666.jpeg
 
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Adjustable upper control arms, Stage II Dr. Diff brakes, 1.03-1.08" torsion bars, big sway bar, Borgeson, adj. strut rods, and most importantly GOOD shocks are pretty much a benchmark for a street car that could do an autocross or canyon carving and you wouldn't be fretting over handling and stopping. A car in which these components are stock you would be in for a ride and it just wouldn't be fun. These components together build confidence in handling and stopping. Of course tire selection and a good alignment is required.

My ride has all the top OEM-style aftermarket suspension goodies and the Doctor Diff Stage II brakes. It's a blast to drive and I would have the confidence to drive it hard through my old stomping grounds, a San Diego canyon route known to the exotics and sportbikers for it's twists, turns, and elevation. If I had my Duster finished when I lived there I would have had a separate set of 18's with good rubber for even more fun but, alas, its a number's matching 340 stick car so I keep it on 15" Rallies. But, it's still confidence inspiring, in what is the opposite of a performance handling tire (BFG's).

I wouldn't worry about Wilwoods until you need a 6 piston, 12"+ option. The entry level Wilwoods and even what some would think would be the next step up are not great. Stage II's with a manual master cylinder kit from Doctor Diff will work very well together. Next progression would be to a Doctor Diff Viper Brembo kit or the guy that makes the adapter kits for late Mustang Brembos.

Look at Bergman Autocraft's wheel specs for your car. He had a Dart he road raced and autocrossed.
 
72bluNblu said:
I still run 9/16” tie rods. The ends are more than strong enough, and the solid adjusters now are much more durable than the original stuff. I wouldn’t bother with returning it for the zero difference you’ll actually notice.

I run 18x9’s +35’s up front with 275/35/18’s. I run FMJ spindles with DoctorDiff’s 13” viper brake kit, which widens the track about 5mm vs the 73+ Mopar disks. I run a B-body 8 3/4 in the back with a 1/2” spring offset, 18x10’s +38 and 295/40/18’s. But I’ve got a Duster so they’ve got an extra 1” of room in the back vs the Darts and I’ve done a some pretty significant pushing and rolling of the quarter lip.

On a Dart with a 1/2” spring offset and some quarter lip work 275’s have been done, on a 15” rim that would need to be a 15x8, yes.View attachment 1716486477
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That's one beautiful Duster!!!

Okay, I'll keep the sleeves that I have and order the 9/16 tie rods. Especially since i wont notice much difference.

I'll definitely be giving Cass a call this week and talk about my options and what they recommend, but the stage 2 definitely sounds like a good foundation to start with.

As far as me and the Dart, would u say that my only option would be a 15" wheel in a stock for with 1/2" offset and with lip rolling and body massaging?
I would like a bigger wheel size, but if 15s are it then I'll go with it
 
go-fish said:
Adjustable upper control arms, Stage II Dr. Diff brakes, 1.03-1.08" torsion bars, big sway bar, Borgeson, adj. strut rods, and most importantly GOOD shocks are pretty much a benchmark for a street car that could do an autocross or canyon carving and you wouldn't be fretting over handling and stopping. A car in which these components are stock you would be in for a ride and it just wouldn't be fun. These components together build confidence in handling and stopping. Of course tire selection and a good alignment is required.

My ride has all the top OEM-style aftermarket suspension goodies and the Doctor Diff Stage II brakes. It's a blast to drive and I would have the confidence to drive it hard through my old stomping grounds, a San Diego canyon route known to the exotics and sportbikers for it's twists, turns, and elevation. If I had my Duster finished when I lived there I would have had a separate set of 18's with good rubber for even more fun but, alas, its a number's matching 340 stick car so I keep it on 15" Rallies. But, it's still confidence inspiring, in what is the opposite of a performance handling tire (BFG's).

I wouldn't worry about Wilwoods until you need a 6 piston, 12"+ option. The entry level Wilwoods and even what some would think would be the next step up are not great. Stage II's with a manual master cylinder kit from Doctor Diff will work very well together. Next progression would be to a Doctor Diff Viper Brembo kit or the guy that makes the adapter kits for late Mustang Brembos.

Look at Bergman Autocraft's wheel specs for your car. He had a Dart he road raced and autocrossed.
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@go-fish Thank you for your input...
Is there a torsion bar, struts bars and shock brand that you'd recommend?

Ideally that's what I want, good confidence in myself while driving and confidence towards my car...especially since id be having my family in there with me.

Do you still have your Duster??


Yeah, I'll be calling Doctordiff this week to see what they think and what fits the budget.

Same with Bergman, I want to get the Borgeson steering box from them.
 
Thanks. Yes, the Duster was a friends who could not complete the full restoration due to health. I was building a Valiant that got derailed by a chassis shop so I put all the go-fast parts together n the Duster. It is a stock appearing car but I have:
SPC Gen I Upper Control Arms,
QA1 Lower Control Arms, QA1 strut rods, PST torsion bars, Helwig sway bar, Borgeson box, Fox shocks. The Stage 2 Doctors Diff brakes were already discussed.
For upper control arms you can get adjustable ones but others like Firm Feel are non-adjustable but t they are “geometry corrected”.
QA1’s lower arms are not necessary but a popular upgrade is to at least weld the tie plates to OEM lower arms.
Multiple suppliers for adjustable strut rods like QA1 and Reilly Motorsports.
Look for a sway bar in the 1”+ thickness.
1.03-1.08” and above torsion bars can be had many more laces like Firm Feel and Kanter Auto.
Firm Feel for Bilstein shocks or Hotchkis/ Fox shocks from Summit.

Peter Bergman (Bergman Autocraft) is the go-to for the Borgeson steering box and required pump. He can also get you the rest of these parts if a one-stop shopping experience is desirable.

Check the search function for Skosh charts to determine how you want the car aligned.

At a certain point you may want to look into chassis stiffening like sub-frame connectors and torque boxes. These shouldn’t be necessary until you are all situated and really pushing the new suspension.
 
Dor-Dor68! said:
That's one beautiful Duster!!!

Okay, I'll keep the sleeves that I have and order the 9/16 tie rods. Especially since i wont notice much difference.

I'll definitely be giving Cass a call this week and talk about my options and what they recommend, but the stage 2 definitely sounds like a good foundation to start with.

As far as me and the Dart, would u say that my only option would be a 15" wheel in a stock for with 1/2" offset and with lip rolling and body massaging?
I would like a bigger wheel size, but if 15s are it then I'll go with it
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Thanks!

There’s pretty much no reason you can’t put 17” or 18” wheels on these cars. You need the 5x4.5” bolt pattern but you’re already doing that with the disks and the 8.8. Good shocks take care of the reduced sidewall height with respect to ride quality, although I think that’s really overblown anyway. The rest is just making sure you keep the overall wheel height manageable.

If anything the larger diameter wheels make tighter clearances easier, because you don’t get as much sidewall movement and flex.

So short answer, no there’s no reason you couldn’t run 17’s or 18’s with the set up you’re planning.
 
72bluNblu said:
Thanks!

There’s pretty much no reason you can’t put 17” or 18” wheels on these cars. You need the 5x4.5” bolt pattern but you’re already doing that with the disks and the 8.8. Good shocks take care of the reduced sidewall height with respect to ride quality, although I think that’s really overblown anyway. The rest is just making sure you keep the overall wheel height manageable.

If anything the larger diameter wheels make tighter clearances easier, because you don’t get as much sidewall movement and flex.

So short answer, no there’s no reason you couldn’t run 17’s or 18’s with the set up you’re planning.
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I'm happy to hear this...so I'll also look into some bigger size wheels. Call me cheesy, but i do love the old stock steelies with dog dishes or the cop wheels...hopefully I can find some in 17s or 18.
Same with the style of wheels u have on your Duster, but in a darker tone.
 
go-fish said:
Thanks. Yes, the Duster was a friends who could not complete the full restoration due to health. I was building a Valiant that got derailed by a chassis shop so I put all the go-fast parts together n the Duster. It is a stock appearing car but I have:
SPC Gen I Upper Control Arms,
QA1 Lower Control Arms, QA1 strut rods, PST torsion bars, Helwig sway bar, Borgeson box, Fox shocks. The Stage 2 Doctors Diff brakes were already discussed.
For upper control arms you can get adjustable ones but others like Firm Feel are non-adjustable but t they are “geometry corrected”.
QA1’s lower arms are not necessary but a popular upgrade is to at least weld the tie plates to OEM lower arms.
Multiple suppliers for adjustable strut rods like QA1 and Reilly Motorsports.
Look for a sway bar in the 1”+ thickness.
1.03-1.08” and above torsion bars can be had many more laces like Firm Feel and Kanter Auto.
Firm Feel for Bilstein shocks or Hotchkis/ Fox shocks from Summit.

Peter Bergman (Bergman Autocraft) is the go-to for the Borgeson steering box and required pump. He can also get you the rest of these parts if a one-stop shopping experience is desirable.

Check the search function for Skosh charts to determine how you want the car aligned.

At a certain point you may want to look into chassis stiffening like sub-frame connectors and torque boxes. These shouldn’t be necessary until you are all situated and really pushing the new suspension.
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So I got QA1 UCA....but looking at those SPC ones, they appear to give me more adjustability options. How do u feel or whats your take on the qa1 uca?? Do you think they're "geometry corrected"?

Since u have experience with the SPC uca, I wouldn't mind returning the qa1 uppers to get the SPC.

And also, I currently have a slant 6, no sway bar...so would mounting an aftermarket sway be a headache, even after installing the qa1 lowers?
 
I heard some QC issues on the UCA's from QA1 lately. I'm sure they will get things sorted out and treat customer's properly (I may be mistaken too). I like the SPC's but also recently purchased Firm Feel UCA's for my kid's '65 Barracuda. When I bought the SPC's they were intended for a full effort autocross car. I would have considered Hotchkis or Firm Feel more.
No problem on the sway bar with QA1 lowers as they have tabs. Careful if you are looking at sway bars from QA1 as there are multiple options. One of them is for their IFS kit and won't work. There are several suppliers or 1.125" and 1.250" sway bars.

Find the cool kids here and check out their rides. @72bluNblu is a wealth of information.
 
go-fish said:
I heard some QC issues on the UCA's from QA1 lately. I'm sure they will get things sorted out and treat customer's properly (I may be mistaken too). I like the SPC's but also recently purchased Firm Feel UCA's for my kid's '65 Barracuda. When I bought the SPC's they were intended for a full effort autocross car. I would have considered Hotchkis or Firm Feel more.
No problem on the sway bar with QA1 lowers as they have tabs. Careful if you are looking at sway bars from QA1 as there are multiple options. One of them is for their IFS kit and won't work. There are several suppliers or 1.125" and 1.250" sway bars.

Find the cool kids here and check out their rides. @72bluNblu is a wealth of information.
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I might be returning the QA1 uppers, just because of the adjustability the ones SPC have. I saw them on summit and Mancini...would you happen to remember the part number on the ones u currently have on ur car?? The ones Mancini offers are part #SPS94460 & SPS94461...I found the same ones on Summit but their description did mentioned that they're for 73-76 dodges...they probably have the large ball joints and would be a what im looking since im doing the LBP disc brake swap...correct?

And as for the Hotchkis and Firm Feel, are those "geometry corrected"...looked at the Hotchkis ones and I saw that they only have them for the B&E bodies only.



@72bluNblu has definitely been a great assest thus far
 
Dor-Dor68! said:
I might be returning the QA1 uppers, just because of the adjustability the ones SPC have. I saw them on summit and Mancini...would you happen to remember the part number on the ones u currently have on ur car?? The ones Mancini offers are part #SPS94460 & SPS94461...I found the same ones on Summit but their description did mentioned that they're for 73-76 dodges...they probably have the large ball joints and would be a what im looking since im doing the LBP disc brake swap...correct?

And as for the Hotchkis and Firm Feel, are those "geometry corrected"...looked at the Hotchkis ones and I saw that they only have them for the B&E bodies only.



@72bluNblu has definitely been a great assest thus far
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Yeah he's a really good guy, despite his being hard headed. We're a lot alike there. lol 440 source has solid steel 9/16 tie rod sleeves for 49 bucks a pair. That's about half of what everybody else wants.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Yeah he's a really good guy, despite his being hard headed. We're a lot alike there. lol 440 source has solid steel 9/16 tie rod sleeves for 49 bucks a pair. That's about half of what everybody else wants.
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We're all a little hard headed at times haha so I get it.


Thank you, let me look at their stuff...is the website just 440 source?
 
Dor-Dor68! said:
I might be returning the QA1 uppers, just because of the adjustability the ones SPC have. I saw them on summit and Mancini...would you happen to remember the part number on the ones u currently have on ur car?? The ones Mancini offers are part #SPS94460 & SPS94461...I found the same ones on Summit but their description did mentioned that they're for 73-76 dodges...they probably have the large ball joints and would be a what im looking since im doing the LBP disc brake swap...correct?

And as for the Hotchkis and Firm Feel, are those "geometry corrected"...looked at the Hotchkis ones and I saw that they only have them for the B&E bodies only.



@72bluNblu has definitely been a great assest thus far
Click to expand...

The ones I have on my car are the 94460 and 94461, from BergmanAutoCraft so they came with Delrin bushings etc. That is the correct part number, they list as 73-76 because they have the large upper ball joint. Which is what you need with the LBP disk spindles.

All of the tubular UCA's I know of are geometry corrected to some level, they have additional caster built in. How much probably depends on the manufacturer, but I don't think I've ever seen a set of tubular UCA's for A-body's that was a direct copy of the originals for geometry. The SPC's obviously give you a lot more adjustability, although for most folks something like the Firm Feel or QA1 UCA's have enough built in. The B/E body Hotchkis UCA's move one of the mounting points, but the A-body ones didn't do that because of the geometry differences between the B/E's and A's.
 
72bluNblu said:
The ones I have on my car are the 94460 and 94461, from BergmanAutoCraft so they came with Delrin bushings etc. That is the correct part number, they list as 73-76 because they have the large upper ball joint. Which is what you need with the LBP disk spindles.

All of the tubular UCA's I know of are geometry corrected to some level, they have additional caster built in. How much probably depends on the manufacturer, but I don't think I've ever seen a set of tubular UCA's for A-body's that was a direct copy of the originals for geometry. The SPC's obviously give you a lot more adjustability, although for most folks something like the Firm Feel or QA1 UCA's have enough built in. The B/E body Hotchkis UCA's move one of the mounting points, but the A-body ones didn't do that because of the geometry differences between the B/E's and A's.
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Okay great! I did end up returning the QA1 uca and giving the SPCs a shot.
Gonna take ur advice and try them out

The other thing is that I didnt see a UCA on hotchkis' website for the A-bodies
 
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