1. Cope

    Cope Fusing with fire

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    Hi folks I got my new timing light and have some questions.

    (Toolmanmike, Its bad ass. I will post in garrage tools also.)


    I have a 1971 LA 318 in my dart with unknown miles (250,000 + - 150,000) All orignal internals..
    Stealth + + with Holley 4150-4777, 650 DP
    MSD 6AL, running off new points and condenser (MOPAR single points dizzy) Stock springs in dizzy.
    Headman longtubes with 2 1/2" to the bumper (summit system)

    My idle (initial) with Vacuum advance pluged is 32 BTDC at 1250 RPM and 42 BTDC @2,500 RPM.

    Dwell 180deg. (Should I close the point gap??)
    This sounds way wrong to me. Shouldn't I be looking at 16-32?

    CARP..I should be checking timing in gear yeah?

    Thanls again for all the time and advice.
     
  2. toolmanmike

    toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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    Glad to hear. Hope it works well for you. tmm
     
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    • pishta

      pishta I know I'm right....

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      How are you using the light off an MSD? Bypassing it to the coil? I would find TDC first with a piston stop you could have spun 20 degrees.
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      CARP? What's a fish got to do with it?
       
    • Cope

      Cope Fusing with fire

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      The fish is the hat Im wearing right now..

      Im using the Innova 5568 Timing light. Inductive pickup on No.1 wire and Neg. feed off coil.
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      Good luck wif all dat, yo.
       
    • Johnny Dart

      Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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      32 at idle and 42 at full advance ?
      Can we say Kaboom !!
      Yes, you should be shooting more towards 12-14 32-34 with your mild 318.
       
    • Cope

      Cope Fusing with fire

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      Preach it man! Let me know, Im here to learn.

      I know you dont like dial up lights, I will mark my ballancer and check it to the light.

      MSD and timing light=BS?


      Im just jabbin ya about the hats..

      How dose Dwell affect the MSD system?
      Im thinking I should shorten the dwell?

      Break it down please.
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      It's just something else to go wrong. Something else to have to wonder about the accuracy of. If all you have is an old standard non dial back light and you use the engine itself as the dial, there's way less room for error. All of your findings so far sound like they are questionable at best. 180* dwell? 32* initial and 42* total? I already call into question the tools you're using to measure. While I guess anything's possible, I've never seen an engine run with 180* of dwell before. I wasn't even aware the meter went that high. As far as "preach it", I already did. I recommended the simplest and among the cheapest, yet best, most accurate timing lights I've ever used on the planet. No offense meant to ToolManMike, but I never sold tools for a living. I used them. Been doing it since 1974. I know what works and I let you know that in my recommendation in your other thread. I did preach it. But you did something different. Now for me, you're in unknown territory.

      Oh and I am wearin my green denim hat tonight, cause it's cold.
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      ....and please understand I am not saying your light is junk, or that ToolManMike gave you bad advice.

      Quite the contrary. He has experience on the flip side. He knows what works good from his angle. It's pretty rare that two people will ever use the same tools to do the same job. I recommended what I have been comfortable using for a long time and dial back lights ain't part of it. Never have been. I just think the simpler something is, the easier it is to use.......it is for ME anyway. I know the limits of my own intelligence. LOL
       
    • Cope

      Cope Fusing with fire

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      Well thats the point of this thread.
      I would like to understand this tool (Not you :) ) and how to use it correctly.
      What numbers I should be looking for and how to achieve them.

      I would like to fully understand fancy timing lights and there potential applications.
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      They are quite easy to understand, but very difficult for me to trust. ;)
       
    • william

      william Well-Known Member

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      Timing Fluctuations
      If your timing seems to be jumping all over the place, check the following items:

      What kind of timing light are you using? Many lights have trouble reading the MSD's capacitive discharge multiple sparks. Dial back timing lights are not recommended. Try another non-adjustable light and check the timing again. MSD offers a Timing Light, PN 8990.

      http://www.msdperformance.com/page.aspx?id=3306
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      Yeah. Get that. Then you'll have close to three hundred bucks in timing lights. That will surely fix it.
       
    • Hemioutlaw

      Hemioutlaw Well-Known Member

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      In rare form today Rusty,

      You crack me up LMAO!

      Use an old ass Sun myself, but it works and has hi-tech chromed plastic.
       
    • Cope

      Cope Fusing with fire

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      I do not want to discuss timing lights on this thread.

      Im looking for rough timing numbers and how or why Im not able to achieve them.


      Rusty, My folks told me "If you gonna run your mouth, you better be catching flys"

      No wonder you got 25,000 posts..

      Im gonna go find a new hat..
       
    • AJ/FormS

      AJ/FormS The end is near FABO Gold Member

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      Lemmeseeif Igotthisright. You have a point-type dist.(really old Tech) in a 71 which originally came with a complete electronic set-up( almost modern Tech), firing an MSD( totally overkill) on that quarter million mile, poor old worn out 318. Then you put a 4bbl and headers on it.Whats wrong with this picture? And 2.5s......Unless you bought it this way. In any case,money was/is being, spent on things in the wrong order,IMHO.
      If you want to know how to achieve "rough numbers", youre gonna have to talk timing lights. Weather you want to or not.Unless of course you put the original type ignition back on it.
      But since you already have the MSD, and its an excellent piece,A) I think I would just find a better way to trigger it.Then B)properly index the harmonic balancer to true TDC and C)install a timing tape.Then D)reread post #7. The "rough numbers" are there.And E) all, base(idle)/all-in(power) timing readings must be done with the vacuum advance can disconnected. And finally F)With the timing tape the dial-back lite is no longer a must-have.
      In the old days,dwell, with single points,was set to 28-32 degrees,at whatever gap it takes.
      Timing is never set in gear.Property and or death may/would be the result.
      There is something wrong with your dizzy.If full advance is only 10* more than idle advance, its about 15 to 20 degrees short.Factory 318s IIRC were set at TDC and topped out at about 34*.So the factory had 30* to 35*(crank degrees) in the dist.And they ran pretty good there. Part of the reason for that was the V-can coming in early and hard giving good drive-ability.Now we all pretty much agree that the LA motors could use more idle/low speed timing. So if 12* idle is a good target(post #7), then 34-12=22* in the dist would be the target. But you have only 10*.Find the reason,and fix it. Some Mopar Performance dists. were/are adjustable. Then reset the "all-in" power timing to 34*.Oh, and reconnect the V-can.
      Bahda-boom. Supper-time!
       
    • Cope

      Cope Fusing with fire

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      Yup I coverd a turd.

      I should have stated that I dont want to go back to the garrage tools an tech.
      Im looking for reasons and facts about my timing issues.
      Causes?
      Fix?

      and how to use all the new functions to make my engine run better.
       
    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack FABO Gold Member

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      Good enough. With every response, I've offered genuine help. Although maybe colorful at times. I don't see anyone else much jumping in. Good luck. I am out when the insults begin.
       
    • Johnny Dart

      Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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      Alright....Lets keep it simple. :)

      Gap the points with a match book. Set your Total timming to 34.

      Seriously, just try it ! :burnout:
       
    • pishta

      pishta I know I'm right....

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      I still say find tdc with a piston stop and apply tape. Bypass msd and fire coil with points. Adjust point gap to spec that'll pretty much take care of dwell as its not adjustable unless you alter the can lobes. Time with vacuum port off and plugged. Time it to 34 up to 2500 rpm, then let it settle down and look at where it lands, that's your mechanical advance number. Remember you double the cam degrees to see crank degrees so if you drop to 12, your mech advance is 11 degrees. That's what you got to work with, plug vacuum back in and see how it runs. Dwell is time the points are closed in degrees, the recharge time of your coil. 318s were 34-38 degrees. Dual point dizzy gave you more dwell because it used 2 point sets offset a tad to provide more charge time.
       
    • jos51700

      jos51700 Well-Known Member

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      Put a new timing chain and tensioner in it before you go any further on this.
       
    • AJ/FormS

      AJ/FormS The end is near FABO Gold Member

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      Im mystified by "covered a turd" and " the garage tools an tech".Is there a secret code to understand these phrases? Or am I just ignorant?
       
    • Rodzilla

      Rodzilla Well-Known Member

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      I have this light and it works great with my MSD ignition.

      But having the right tool for the job is important, I'd rather be able to test with the gear that the car is using.

      Back to the topic at hand, I'd swap that dizzy out for an electronic ignition unit. Find top dead center and start at the beginning. I'm sure a cheap one can be found, or borrow one to see if its not a deeper issue like timing chain issue.
       
    • Rapid Robert

      Rapid Robert Well-Known Member

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      The (above) numbers ain't soundin right. I would gap the points a .017" (or a matchbook) then unplug/cap the vac adv & set the initial at 15 at ~600 RPM in gear/ebrake on which will be what you will see stoplight to stoplight. Stock OE lo po cam correct?). That'd be a start & find out what is going on with your numbers. My first step would be a good timing chain set. EDIT I'm assuming the can is on ported?
       
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