TR6060 and TB suspension? Any info on the starter interference?

[DionR]

I ran into this picture on DIYHemi's forum:

It's of a B-Body, but the issue is the idler arm hitting the starter in a G3/TR6060 swap. Due to this I assumed that an A-Body would be even worse.

Then I tripped over this note in the Holley swap header instructions:

Which kind of implies that maybe it isn't an issue (or a big one) with their swap parts?

I've also been watching through a guys swap on YouTube putting a 5.7/TR6060 into a 70 or 71 Challenger. So far I haven't finished it but I know he has driven it to Seattle and I don't think he did an aftermarket coil over kit.

Anyone with experience or visuals to explain the issue? Or anyone done it?

 

[72bluNblu]

I don’t think this is an issue with the TR6060 per se, but an issue with the right side starter mount on the factory G3 bellhousing.

I know the QuickTime G3 bellhousing moves the starter to the left side, same as the QT bellhousing for the LA small block. As far as the TR6060, the Tremec T56 based transmissions have some differences in the input shaft based on the model, ie, Viper vs Ford vs Chevy vs T56 magnum vs TR6060. I don’t see any reason why the TR6060 has to be a right side starter, but, I’m not versed enough in the TR6060 to know if the G3 QT bellhousing is compatible without changes to the front plate or input shaft.

I run the LA version of the QT bellhousing with my T56 magnum, it puts the starter in the same place as the LA bellhousing and there are no additional clearance issues compared to a LA engine that I’m aware of. I run a mini-starter with Doug’s D453’s and a Milodon road race pan.

 

[DionR]

I don’t think this is an issue with the TR6060 per se, but an issue with the right side starter mount on the factory G3 bellhousing.

Correct. It's the location of the starter that is the issue. I guess I just combine it in my mind due to (as far as I know) the TR6060 being kind of stuck as it is.

I know the QuickTime G3 bellhousing moves the starter to the left side, same as the QT bellhousing for the LA small block. As far as the TR6060, the Tremec T56 based transmissions have some differences in the input shaft based on the model, ie, Viper vs Ford vs Chevy vs T56 magnum vs TR6060. I don’t see any reason why the TR6060 has to be a right side starter, but, I’m not versed enough in the TR6060 to know if the G3 QT bellhousing is compatible without changes to the front plate or input shaft.

I don't know of a bellhousing available to bolt to a TR6060 out of Challenger that would swap the starter to the drivers side. Everything I found is based on the LS style T56 and won't bolt to a TR6060.

I did some research awhile ago to see if a TR6060 could be converted to a T56 due to them being about half the price of a T56. In the end, I think I had to pretty much get a free TR6060 to make it work to buy the parts to convert it. Maybe it would be worth it to just do the midplate and input shaft so I could use an QT bell, or even the cast aluminum one from American Powertrain. All I looked at was the full conversion.

When I was going to put a 6 speed behind my LA, the T56 was really the best option. Now that I am gathering parts to do a G3 swap, the TR6060 was back on the table until I read that the PS starter forces you to use an aftermarket suspension. But then I tripped over the note in the header instructions and now I am wondering if maybe it is still an option.

 

[DionR]

Ok, my memory was wrong. I did price the TR6060 with only the midplate and input shaft.

Midplate $350
Input shaft $300

With shipping (at that time) it was right about $700 to convert the front of a TR6060 to an LS style and get it bolted to the a motor. Depending on the cost of the TR6060, might not be that bad. The TR6060 local to me ( 2 hours away) is $1800, and after the parts it looks like it would be about $800 less than a new T56. Not sure, might be worth going new at that point since the TR6060 is going to require an output adapter and doesn't have a speedometer cable option.

I am sure there are cheaper TR6060, it was just the one I found on Car-Part.com.

 

[72bluNblu]

Yeah honestly one of the reasons I used the T56 magnum was to keep the cable driven speedometer.

As the aftermarket electronic and GPS speedometer selection has improved I’m not sure I’d worry about it as much next time around though. I suppose it doesn’t hurt that my next T56 project will be my Challenger, and there’s lots of aftermarket gauge options for those. Not sure why but I do like the look of the classic gauges in the cockpit, even if I modify the heck out of everything else.

 

[DionR]

Yeah honestly one of the reasons I used the T56 magnum was to keep the cable driven speedometer.

Yes, this is an issue. There is a Dakota Digital box that can take a speed signal and spin a cable to drive the original speedometer, but you still need some kind of a road speed input and the TR6060 has nothing. Still noodling that whole deal.

As the aftermarket electronic and GPS speedometer selection has improved I’m not sure I’d worry about it as much next time around though.

I'm not a fan of GPS speedometers. They work great as long as there is a signal, and I doubt I would see an issue in my area unless I go down to the river. Pretty sure I would be blind to my speed then. And any trips over Highway 2 to Everett or even Leavenworth would be a pain. Just not a fan, but that's just me.

Not sure why but I do like the look of the classic gauges in the cockpit, even if I modify the heck out of everything else.

I understand. I wouldn't mind if my interior had a mostly stock look, but gauges are one that doesn't bother me beyond a full digital dash. I like dials myself.

I did figure out that the Speedhut Freedom CANBus gauges should work in my situation. Still don't have a way to put a speedometer code onto it yet, but it's a start.

 

[DionR]

Got a response back from Holley today and the guy said I should be fine to run a TR6060 with my stock suspension.

Waiting on the Holley motor mounts and then I plan to mock up the k-frame and motor and see how much room is left for a starter on the passenger side.

If it works, comes down to figuring out a speed signal from someplace. I see a fair number of setups that use the OEM ABS module and a speed sensor to produce the signal. Maybe something like that is an idea.

 

[DionR]

Yeah, I think Holley missed something and that they are wrong.

I bought a later Hellcat starter (there is an earlier one that is smaller) and found a dust cover to locate it. Then, with the help of a friend, put together a plate to simulate a bell housing. The motor is 1 degree down in relation to the k-frame it is sitting on. I've read the stock 5.7 setup is 2 degrees down but the Holley motor mounts are too stiff to get that without bolting it all to a car, and that would only make it worse anyway.

Don't see a way this is going to work. I'd need the idler to drop about 1" to clear the starter, and even the smaller one isn't that much smaller.

Pretty sure the TR6060 is out with a TB suspension short of swapping the midplate and input shaft so an aftermarket bellhousing can be used. And then I wouldn't call it a "TR6060" anymore.

 

[392heminut]

Why are you mounting the starter on the right side? Most Mopar apps have the starter on the left side. That could be your problem.

 

[72bluNblu]

Why are you mounting the starter on the right side? Most Mopar apps have the starter on the left side. That could be your problem.

It's the factory location on most of the Gen III hemi's. Basically he just wants to take the entire drivetrain out of a modern car -Gen III hemi, factory bell and TR6060 and install it in his car. But that factory combo put the starter on the right

 

[DionR]

Why are you mounting the starter on the right side? Most Mopar apps have the starter on the left side. That could be your problem.

Blu nailed it.

Not trying to put the starter on the passenger side, just trying to use the OEM setup.

Probably a mute point, looks like I will be using all aftermarket stuff in the end.

 

[392heminut]

It's the factory location on most of the Gen III hemi's. Basically he just wants to take the entire drivetrain out of a modern car -Gen III hemi, factory bell and TR6060 and install it in his car. But that factory combo put the starter on the right

I wasn't aware of that! I used a TF727 with the starter on the left on my swap. Since the engine is offset in the engine bay there's no interference with the pitman arm. I'm guessing that most of the swaps incorporating the factory trans with the starter on the right probably used aftermarket K frames with rack and pinion steering? From the looks of the picture, that starter is not a 'slight' obstruction!

 

[DionR]

...I'm guessing that most of the swaps incorporating the factory trans with the starter on the right probably used aftermarket K frames with rack and pinion steering?....

Best I can tell this is correct. At least I haven't found anyone using the stock steering and a right side starter. At least on an A-Body anyway.

 

[Edsrt]

Best I can tell this is correct. At least I haven't found anyone using the stock steering and a right side starter. At least on an A-Body anyway.

I know that Hemi cars have starter on the right side and hemi trucks have it on the left side . I believe you can change the bell housing to a quick time scatter shield to switch the starter to the left side. Since the starters where always bolted to the transmission and not the block

 

[72bluNblu]

I know that Hemi cars have starter on the right side and hemi trucks have it on the left side . I believe you can change the bell housing to a quick time scatter shield to switch the starter to the left side. Since the starters where always bolted to the transmission and not the block

The problem isn’t getting the starter on the left side, the QuickTime bell uses the GM version of the T56 Magnum and the Chrysler TR6060 has a different input shaft and mid plate. You can swap it, but it adds to the cost. The T56 has a whole bunch of different versions with different input shaft diameters and lengths and several different mid plate arrangements.

 

[DionR]

I know that Hemi cars have starter on the right side and hemi trucks have it on the left side . I believe you can change the bell housing to a quick time scatter shield to switch the starter to the left side. Since the starters where always bolted to the transmission and not the block

To use the QT bell on a Challenger TR6060, you have to change the input shaft and midplate. It's about $650 for those parts, plus another $916 for the bell. If I went aftermarket T56 Magnum, the bell is still required so not sure it is fair to include that other than to say that a used TR6060 at $1800 would run $3366 in total to get it bolted to the motor. Compared to $1800 if I could use the TR6060 as is, the $3366 is a significant difference.

As far as I know, no one makes an aftermarket bell to work with the Mopar TR6060 that put's the starter on the drivers side. There are aftermarket ones, but they keep the PS starter location.

A used TR6060 and $650 in parts to use the aftermarket bell isn't a bad price, still $1000 less than a new T56 Magnum. But it still requires the output adapter and special drive shaft, plus you don't have a speedometer output so additional parts. That kind of eats up the $1000 savings pretty fast and makes it a little harder to justify. If the TR6060 just fit, then it makes more sense, in my mind.

 

[DionR]

The problem isn’t getting the starter on the left side, the QuickTime bell uses the GM version of the T56 Magnum and the Chrysler TR6060 has a different input shaft and mid plate. You can swap it, but it adds to the cost. The T56 has a whole bunch of different versions with different input shaft diameters and lengths and several different mid plate arrangements.

You were faster on the draw!

I need to learn to be less "wordy".

 

[DionR]

I should add that there is a $425 cast aluminum bellhousing option as well. So the QT bell with it's $916 price tag isn't the only way.

 

[72bluNblu]

I should add that there is a $425 cast aluminum bellhousing option as well. So the QT bell with it's $916 price tag isn't the only way.

Good grief are they that much now?! They were like $650 when I bought mine and I got it on a close out from Amazon for under $600. It was the only option when I bought it, haven’t looked at those cast bells so I don’t know what versions of everything they use.

 

[DionR]

Good grief are they that much now?! They were like $650 when I bought mine and I got it on a close out from Amazon for under $600. It was the only option when I bought it, haven’t looked at those cast bells so I don’t know what versions of everything they use.

It's getting bad. If it isn't supply issues, the costs are going up too fast as well. Maybe they are related, but seems like once they are in stock I all of the sudden can't afford it anymore.

Holley's A-Body swap headers were stainless steel and $449 or something. Then they were out of stock and the price was $669. Mounts and pans have gone up too, but only $20 or $30.

 

[DionR]

The Holley mounts slide the motor forward about 1.75" and I wonder if the aftermarket shifter wouldn't crash with the crossmember some and make a crossmember difficult to build. The T56 Magnum looks to work, but only when the rear most mount is used. Can't tell if the TR6060 mount is in the same spot as the T56 Magnum or forward of it a little.

Blu's T56 swap:

@Sublime one TR6060 swap.

 

[DionR]

Interesting, just notice that the T56 Magnum is fairly square at the crossmember due to the shifter mount box and the ability to reverse the shifter and move it forward. On the other hand, the TR6060 is much more rounded there and could save a little in the height of the tunnel.

Assuming the shifter isn't interfering with the crossmember, 'cuz then it would get significantly taller.

 

[Edsrt]

Interesting, just notice that the T56 Magnum is fairly square at the crossmember due to the shifter mount box and the ability to reverse the shifter and move it forward. On the other hand, the TR6060 is much more rounded there and could save a little in the height of the tunnel.

Assuming the shifter isn't interfering with the crossmember, 'cuz then it would get significantly taller.

View attachment 1715959416

that's why I still the a833 , although overdrive would be nice

 

[DionR]

that's why I still the a833 , although overdrive would be nice

Because the Holley mounts move the motor, even with an A833 it would be full a drivetrain swap. Might not need to rebuild the tunnel, but I bet the shifter would crash with the crossmember and you would have to rebuild the trans mount and clutch linkage (or go hydraulic). Easy fix is to use the TTI mounts.

Sucks though as it would be nice to do the T56 swap and then the Hemi swap (or visa versa), but they will have to be done at the same time.

BTW, in my mind, the big advantages of the Holley mounts is the low mount AC compressor works on VCT motors and you can run the 6.4 SRV intake without hacking your firewall. Plus the headers are cheaper than the TTI one's, even if not as cheap as they where a couple of months ago.

 

[72bluNblu]

Because the Holley mounts move the motor, even with an A833 it would be full a drivetrain swap. Might not need to rebuild the tunnel, but I bet the shifter would crash with the crossmember and you would have to rebuild the trans mount and clutch linkage (or go hydraulic). Easy fix is to use the TTI mounts.

Sucks though as it would be nice to do the T56 swap and then the Hemi swap (or visa versa), but they will have to be done at the same time.

BTW, in my mind, the big advantages of the Holley mounts is the low mount AC compressor works on VCT motors and you can run the 6.4 SRV intake without hacking your firewall. Plus the headers are cheaper than the TTI one's, even if not as cheap as they where a couple of months ago.

Do you know if anyone is running those mounts on an A-body at all? I'm just thinking that there's going to be very little room for fans and pulleys up front. On a B/E the radiator clearance is a whole different ball game.