Trick flow 240s on milder builds versus Edelbrock RPMs

Big Block A body Tech

  1. rumblefish360

    rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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    Narrower bleeds more compression...


    LOL, reminds me of a old beer commercial...

    Tastes great
    Less filling
    Tastes great

    Less filling
    TASTES GREAT
    Less filling
     
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    • IQ52

      IQ52 Well-Known Member

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      Okay, I'll bite. Explain how that works.
       
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      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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        Sorry you missed the humor.
         
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        • IQ52

          IQ52 Well-Known Member

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          Thank goodness.
           
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          • DC Dart

            DC Dart Member

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            Looking at cam profiles. A Hyd. roller cam @224@.050. as rumble fish mentioned is where I will start. was thinking a little more. All the input is appreciated guys.
             
          • Oldiron440

            Oldiron440 Well-Known Member

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            I would add 10° to that.
             
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            • rumblefish360

              rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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              The cam I mentioned is in a 360 @ 11-1, with an automatic & 3.55’s on a 26 inch tire. This was an example. Just for small cams in a high-ish compression ratio & aluminum heads. The smaller displacement engine in a medium weight a body designed to be a 100% driver, can use all the torque it can gather. As Oldiron440 says........
              Actually not a bad idea on a few fronts,
              1: Being a manual, it’ll take more cam easy.
              2: It’ll be OK w/3.55’s and pull like MAD on the street because—
              3: At 451 cubes, there’s no shortage of torque!
              IMO, the direction I’d go in for a mostly street 451 & 3.55’s, I’d find a nice stout lobe Lunati cam with as much lift as the heads can handle. Let it rip! And it will.
              You’ll be doubling the speed limit at the top of second gear to mid third gear. Tire size dependent.
              Your initial notion of a cam @230@.050 is IMO a good one.
              IDK about a 240@.050 cam with 3.55’s. Gotta find a BTDT guy.
               
            • Oldiron440

              Oldiron440 Well-Known Member

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              I would think that with TF heads, 10:1 CR and a 230° 575 lift cam a 451 would pull 575 hp and tq. I can get 525 hp 545 tq with iron heads and less compression with a 452.
               
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              • AndyF

                AndyF Well-Known Member

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                Sounds like a bit of a pickle. Do you have a good engine shop in the local area who you can work with? If it was me I'd want to nail down the facts before I made another decision. You said pistons are down 0.025 but then you also said 0.008 so not sure which one you really have. On an engine like this you should pay attention to the quench distance which means you aren't going to be able to use a thick head gasket to lower the compression. Take some measurements, figure out what you have, calculate the compression ratio with the TF heads and then go from there. If the compression ratio is too high for pump gas then you'll either need to use the Edelbrock heads or you'll have to make some changes. You really don't want to put an engine together that you aren't going to enjoy using.
                You don't need a lot of compression, or a big cam, to make 600 hp with the TF heads. The engines I've been working with lately are around 9.8 compression with hyd rollers in the high 230s or low 240 range and they make 600/600 with out of the box 240 heads. You don't want to use too big of a cam with the 240 heads on a street car since the high flow at low lift will blow the charge out the exhaust. Big cams are okay for race cars but not for street cars that have to cruise at 1800 rpm down the freeway.
                I think in your first post you said you had an OD transmission with 3.55 gears? If so you'll want to go smaller on the cam. Otherwise you'll have a real problem ever using that OD.
                I'm thinking that if you don't want to change pistons you should probably go with Edelbrock heads. If you want more power than cast heads then talk to Dwayne at Porter Racing Heads. Tell him what you're trying to do and he'll provide some cost effective port work, set up the heads and provide you with a custom cam profile that will fit your real needs. Be sure to tell him what you're really trying to accomplish. Saying you want 500 hp is meaningless. What you really want is a big round torque curve so you can cruise down the freeway in OD.
                 
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                • AndyF

                  AndyF Well-Known Member

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                  Okay, went back and reread your first post again. Looks like you have not made a choice on the transmission so I'll offer some advice there. A well built 451 in a '68 Dart doesn't need a 6 speed transmission. First off that install will cost you a ton of money. Probably $5K or $6K by the time you're done and you most likely will never use 6th gear if you have 3.55 rear gears. A 5 speed could be used in a car like that but they are harder to come by. The Passon setup would be cool if you can get them.
                  So I'd say save your money and run a four speed. If you have money burning a hole in your pocket then use it on the engine. Get a professional shop to help you with the engine so it is smooth and powerful from idle to WOT. If you have a really nice engine then you'll be happy with four speeds.
                  Cam selection with a manual trans and 3.55 gears is super critical. If you go too big on the cam then you'll hate driving the car at low speeds around town. So you are going to need to stay small with the cam regardless of what people on the internet tell you to do. The people who tell you to put a big cam in it aren't paying the bills and they aren't laying on their backs under your car helping you put it together.
                   
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                  • cookietruck

                    cookietruck Well-Known Member

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                    ^ in agreement with Andy.
                    Just an FYI, I think you already have pistons but if you don't, there is a 1.35"CH Mahle piston that could work with a full deck height block. Advantage for that piston is it has an -8cc volume for valve notches and that works well with the 78cc combustion chambers in the TF heads for a 451 build...
                     
                  • DC Dart

                    DC Dart Member

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                    Thanks for the reality check Andy. I bought the stroker kit from 440 source and had the machine work done around 10 years ago. 84 cc Edelbrocks RPMs were the plan. Years prior to the trick flows being an option. If I was to have started a build in the last year I would have gone the 470 route with a 12cc dish piston for trick flows. 10 years ago I debated 451 versus 470 went the proven route at the time. I do have Edelbrock RPMs 60925 ordered and I do not think I am going to cancel it now. They were on sale. My pistons are .008 below deck the compression will be higher than I want with the trick flows.
                    If I stay with a 4 speed I wont have to hack my freshly painted floor and scrape up my dynamat which would be a plus. Soooo I may be falling off the Trick Flow wagon on this project. But the 440 RB in the GTX will be a good 500ci Trick Flow candidate someday. I am going roller lifters and fuel injection still which was not the plan 10 years ago. All the input from everyone is appreciated very much.
                     
                  • roccodart440

                    roccodart440 Well-Known Member

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                    230@.050 is small for a 451 no matter how you slice it. Not that this is a bad thing.

                    Now how it acts and performs... well, there is more to that than just duration. I can tell you 240@.050 in a 440 when cut on a higher LSA is mild and VERY and happy at low rpms. It will make around 500hp with OOTB RPM heads. The 451 will be even more tolerant of duration. Now 240 cut on a 104LSA in a 440 sounds like a top fuel dragster, ratty idle and wants RPM, build power very quick and falls off just as fast, and will also make around 500hp. Overlap, IC, EC, ramp speeds, all play in as well.

                    Personally if that 451 was mine I'd have 240's on it with a custom roller cut at 250@.050 on a 112+ LSA.

                    I also don't buy into 4 speeds being more cam friendly. Tuned right with the right convertor this isn't an issue.
                     
                  • AndyF

                    AndyF Well-Known Member

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                    Sounds good to me. You most likely are not going to miss the little bit of extra power that the Trick Flows would give you since that is a fairly light car and it is for the street anyway. If you want more power down the road you can always get the Edelbrock heads ported. You are smart for going with the Sniper setup. I think spending money on the Sniper rather than ported heads is the way to go for a street car. You'll be amazed at how well the car will run once you get the Sniper tuned. A smallish hyd roller cam combined with a Sniper setup will make it seem like you're driving a new car. Here is the low deck 512 I have in my Duster. It has a small hyd roller and EFI. Starts and runs like a new car.
                    DSC_4051 (Large).JPG
                     
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                    • IQ52

                      IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                      What Andy says about being able to port the RPM heads later is true. A well ported RPM with larger valves will lack very little when compared to the 240 Trick Flow gains quoted above.

                      Lift..............Ported RPM cfm gain vs OOTB RPM
                      .100..........-7
                      .200..........+0
                      .300..........+9
                      .400..........+34
                      .500..........+41
                      .600..........+65
                      .700..........+60
                       
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                      • roccodart440

                        roccodart440 Well-Known Member

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                        Valves being the key there. While numbers vary some bench to bench, when I did my research to get my heads done, a standard valve ported RPm would do around 320's. With the oversized intake valve they'd do 340's.

                        I can't say enough for what a good set of heads does for an engine.
                         
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                        • toolmanmike

                          toolmanmike FABO MODERATOR Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                          I was just thinking as I was reading the title of this thread on the home page, If you replace small valve, small port, open chamber heads with closed chamber, big valve, big port heads it has got to be a very noticeable improvement.
                           
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                          • IQ52

                            IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                            Yes it's true. I personally know that a single 4-bbl, pump gas 451 with ported Edelbrock RPM heads can make 720-770+ horsepower. Pull...after pull...after pull...after pull...with a one pull peak of 786.9 HP.
                             
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                            • PRH

                              PRH Well-Known Member

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                              Jim....... starting with used heads....... what’s the bill for a job like that?
                              Say..... within a few hundred $$$
                               
                            • IQ52

                              IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                              Dwayne, if supplied stripped and clean, with the exhaust valves.....then new intake valves, new valve seals, new seats in the heads, porting, returned clean, valves and guides lubed, heads double bagged and ready for locators, springs, retainers and locks........$1,700.

                              Initial cleaning (if supplied filthy and assembled), milling, repairs or parts that might be requested or needed, were additional.
                               
                            • PRH

                              PRH Well-Known Member

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                              Seems like a fair enough price for all that’s involved.

                              Most of my customers want to just send dirty assembled heads, and get back heads that are assembled and ready to install.
                              And frankly, I prefer it that way.

                              But what I’m getting at is....... disassembly, cleaning the heads and all parts, bead blasting, testing springs, reassembly, setting spring heights, and they almost always get at least a skim cut on the decks...... you’re talking about another $250-300.
                               
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                              • IQ52

                                IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                                Now this is funny.

                                Some warriors from the dark side called and said, "We've seen what you can do and we need your help. We are shipping you some iron Ford FE heads. Just make them work."

                                Interesting in that almost 30 years ago Dad was doing the same thing for Ford.....but I have no samples of his work.

                                A couple years back we did look at the Edelbrock aluminum FE offerings for some people.

                                Hmmm, the iron ones are now in the shop.....retirement may be out the window.
                                 
                              • PRH

                                PRH Well-Known Member

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                                Well, at least the FE heads have really short intake ports(less to port).

                                I’ve flow tested one Ede FE head....... I don’t recall what the numbers were...... but I seem to remember it was noticeably less than the numbers in the catalog.

                                I also tested some unmodified big valve 427 heads...... they were solidly less than some numbers I’d seen on the “internet’s”.
                                The numbers I’d seen were really the only reason I tested it in the first place....... cuz it sure didn’t “look” like it was anything special, and I wanted to see if it was better than it looked.
                                It wasn’t.
                                 
                              • DC Dart

                                DC Dart Member

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                                Experience with a high compression FE in a Ford Highboy is one of the reasons I lean toward the 84cc combustion chamber of the Edelbrock versus the better breathing trick flow (remember short block machined and balanced). Apples to grapes with an old pickup but to high of compression is a PIA. And at the time the cheaper ( still added up)octane boost did not do much. Seems to be a lot of interest in the FE platform lately.
                                So the way my luck goes about the time I get the Edelbrocks bolted on the engine Trick flow will offer larger combustion chambers or Edelbrock will offer a CNC option. Once the engine is together like many others I will likely be happy with the current state of the head. In a street car I would likely use the air-conditioning that could be purchased for the cost of port work more than the extra horsepower. But knowing the option is there is pretty awesome.
                                So the current plan Holley sniper and distributor, Edelbrock rpm heads and intake, TTI 1 7/8 headers, comp cams roller rockers, spool engine mounts, 833 four speed, 3.55 and A/C.
                                Roller cam and oil pan still undecided. Have 187 pan but prefer more capacity. Have 1/2 pickup.
                                Oh and factory A body rear tiny fender wells.
                                The FE ford cylinder head findings will be interesting. For those who have never removed and installed FE cast iron intakes its a real treat. NOT
                                 
                              • AndyF

                                AndyF Well-Known Member

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                                Good luck with those iron FE heads. Here was the result of my one journey to FE land: Dyno Tested: We Make 700 HP With Trick Flow’s New FE Heads - Hot Rod
                                 
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