upgrading regulator

Discussion in 'Electrical and Ignition' started by oldmusclelover, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. oldmusclelover

    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Hi All, been a while, busy summer. won't waste time here, but thanks to all for your previous help, finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel.
    so, question: in the diagram below, is it alright to splice (so to speak) the blue and the blue with white tracer at the connection at the ballast resistor? thanks in advance, you all have been a GREAT help, the still learning electrical dummy :)
    upload_2018-8-30_16-4-53.png
     
  2. Peter Bates

    Peter Bates 1973 Cuda owner for 36yrs

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    the diagram says so Burberry check the volts first. If way high; say 16+ then it might warm up things more than our old parts like. Assume this is a new alt. Worse case is keep on hand, like we all used to, a spare ballast and regulator.
     
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    • oldmusclelover

      oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      yes Peter, a new alternator, up from the 37 to a 90, hoping it has the low rpm input. would it matter where the wires were spliced? guess that is my question. thanks
       
    • Dana67Dart

      Dana67Dart Most undignified way to get to Colorado!

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      Assuming the diagram is correct. ( i just don't know the 2 wire alternators) The blue and the blue with white stripe are at the same potential (battery voltage) The "F" green wire from the voltage regulator to the field of the alternator appears to be what regulates the field to regulate the charging voltage from the alternator.

      So yes, you can join the blue and blue with white stripe wires together where ever you want. (at the ballast or anywhere else)
       
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      • oldmusclelover

        oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        sorry, am upgrading regulator, and alternator. this is on a 340 engine. already have upgraded distributor system, hence the upgrade to regulator.
         
      • superchargeddrt

        superchargeddrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        Yes it would be fine to connect the blue and the blue/white at the ballast resistor. Even though in the schematic diagram it shows the blue wire spliced further back it is technically the same point and so is the one field of the alternator. So any where along that wire would be acceptable including the ballast resistor terminal.
         
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        • 4spdragtop

          4spdragtop FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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          Been a run on electrical questions lately(myself included) here is a pic I took of mine today.
          Both blue wires to ballast spliced. Extra red wire is one I added for something???lol
          ** not sure if it matters, but 1 field alternator 67 barracuda**

          20180830_090203.jpg

          View attachment 1715218156
           
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          • oldmusclelover

            oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            thanks for the responses guys, was thinking it would be alright, but when in doubt......
            don't like to throw questions out that I may be able to find on this site by searching, but when I search, I start reading and find other points of interest and end up being here all day reading other related threads that interest me, and may or may not find what I was originally looking for. :) kinda like the "oh look, a shiny thing"
            thanks again to all! now back to that spaghetti under the hood, hahaha
             
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            • JoeSBP

              JoeSBP RLTW!

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              is the blue wire a sensing wire for the regulator?
               
            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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              Let's step back a moment. Just what are you upgrading? In other words, what year car did you start with? Are you just upgrading amperage, or going from the old 69/ earlier regulator to the newer 70/ later?

              VOLTAGE!! Most these old girls have problems with the circuit path to the resistor. This is battery, starter relay, fuse link, bulkhead connector, ammeter, ignition switch, back out the bulkhead.........to the resistor

              VOLTAGE DROP in that path will cause the new (or old) system to OVER charge (over voltage) One way around it is to cut loose all underhood loads fed by the ignition run wire to the ignition/ regulator and use a relay in that circuit

              So far as a branch point, yes, you can connect there at the resistor, but what about the OLD regulator wire? it connects to the same point.

              IN FACT if you are going from the older 69/ early regulator to the 70/ later, you can use the OLD wiring and ADD one wire just tap into the ballast as proposed and run that down to the second field connector on the new alternator
               
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              • JoeSBP

                JoeSBP RLTW!

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                are you upgrading the alternator in an attempt to increase low RPM output? Like pulsing lights at idle?

                If you are going from a 37 to a 90amp, you need to bypass the ammeter (or replace with volt gauge) and carefully inspect and rehab the bulkhead connector (or do the MAD bypass).

                You can't just patch a 90amp in place of a 37amp, utilizing wiring designed to support 37amp, 50 years ago. Trust me, things can get ugly, you want the piece of mind knowing it's solid instead of a time bomb
                 
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                • oldmusclelover

                  oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  Joe/67dart273/all, hope this will help: 1967 dart with a 69 340, upgrading alternator for low idle (which is what ate up my bulkhead with heat with the 37 original alt). 67dart273, you helped me with this many moons ago. I have done the bypass, gotten relays on the lights with wire around from crackedback, replaced red and black under hood to 10 gauge up to the bulkhead with new packard clips. replacing all heated/hard wires that I can find. went with a new powermaster alt 90, now upgrading to (yes 67dart273) a newer 70/later regulator as the car already has electronic ignition. here's the old schematic:
                  upload_2018-8-31_6-29-43.png
                  but now that I study this, I realize I have other wiring for the electronic ignition, so I will have to look that up (or do I?, I know the knowledge is right here).
                  after replacing wiring under the hood, I found the female side of the bulkhead had heated up to the point it would not hold the female connectors (black of course, but heated enough that the yellow wouldn't hold either). found tell tale signs of someone else fixing this at one time or another. I did at that point push those two wires through the whole bulkhead and make a butt connection. crude? yes, but it will have to do for now. (see pic's)
                  upload_2018-8-31_6-45-12.png
                  upload_2018-8-31_6-46-45.png
                  upload_2018-8-31_6-47-51.png
                   
                • oldmusclelover

                  oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  a second question if you don't mind: am I correct at reading my wiring diagram for the ballast resistor as- the brown wire from ignition switch gives the full 12 volts to the coil for starting purpose only, then when the car is running and key goes to the run position the alternator takes over and the ballast resistor drops the voltage to 8 for the coil? if so, and again if I am reading correctly, shouldn't the electronic ignition wire go to the side of the ballast resistor with the blue wire from the regulator so it's getting power from the 12 volt side, and not the drop to 8 volts?
                  thanks again for your help
                   
                • Dana67Dart

                  Dana67Dart Most undignified way to get to Colorado!

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                  • oldmusclelover

                    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    thanks Dana, a couple questions after reading: do I have to pull the distributor to check gap? or, can I pull plugs and turn engine over by hand to get each individual gap (states all 8)? I will have to wait until I put the rest of the wiring back together to do the check for the 'run' position on the ballast resistor. but, I still believe something is wrong with the way it is hooked up, because the blue wire with the yellow tracer is hooked on the same spade as the brown wire (on my car). as the diagram on page 10 shows, the start wire (yellow) should be on the opposite side of the ECU wire, which is not the case on mine. short explanation: starter relay to yellow to ignition switch to brown for the start position. brown is on the same spade as the blue wire with yellow tracer from the ECU. hence, I believe someone hooked it up wrong when they did the install. hence, post #13.
                    this particular diagram shows what I'm speaking of, and that the ECU wire is on the wrong spade connector on the ballast resistor
                    upload_2018-8-31_13-54-55.png
                    the car ran fine before I started this work, but do you think it may have damaged the ECU??? or was it able to run off of 8 volts?
                    in the diagram above, the blu/yel wire from the ECU is hooked with the brn "start" wire and the coil wire on my car.
                    I've learned a lot from reading everyone's posts in the threads, but not enough hands on to be confident. that's why I am asking the questions, to get the knowledge that comes from 'doing'. so, what do you all think about the ECU unit after being hooked up wrong?
                     
                  • oldmusclelover

                    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    yes Joe, I have done the other upgrades as well. bypass, new wiring, new packard clips, trying to do it right, and that's why I ask questions here, for help from others that have done this before, and help with advice to keep me from frying my system, thanks for looking out for me :)
                     
                  • oldmusclelover

                    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    67 dart, 69 340 engine, to the newer 70/later, have relay in electric fan and headlights, yes-I am adding the wire as you say, just needed to know if I could put it in the connector with the others. I explain more below for all, forgot I could reply to each individual. thanks again
                     
                  • MoparLeo

                    MoparLeo NRA PATRON LEVEL LIFE MEMBER FABO Gold Member

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                  • oldmusclelover

                    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    thanks Leo, have done most of this already, or am doing now, as the original question for the upgraded regulator. great information, and I didn't know about the limiter, will have to look into that. thanks again! what do you think about the wire from the ECU being on the wrong side of the ballast resistor?
                     
                  • oldmusclelover

                    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    one other question about the bulkhead fix Leo, it says to pack it with grease (dielectric?). here's a can of worms opening, LOL, I have read that the grease is not conductive, and will lower your surface connection. and if that wasn't enough ;) I have also bought into the crimp on connectors over soldering for the same reason: 1-non-conductive (most) 2-brittle
                    your thoughts? thanks again
                     
                  • oldmusclelover

                    oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    ok, next time slap me! there's only one hot to the ballast, and am I correct to assume the ballast resistor doesn't drop the voltage until there is a load?
                     
                  • 67Dart273

                    67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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                    That's right it's called "Ohm's Law." On a breaker points system, if the points happen to be open, the ballast will have "battery" on both ends. If you have breakerless, and something is wrong with it, or the box (ECU) is not grounded, it will not draw current and will show same as on both ends
                     
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                    • 67Dart273

                      67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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                      Yes, the wire going direct to the ECU should be on the "key" side of the ballast. Essentially, the wiring/ ballast / coil is UNCHANGED. The only change to the coil wiring is essentially you unhook the points, and replace the coil NEG terminal with the (appropriate) wire going to the coil NEG. In other words, the ignition box switches the coil on/ off just exactly like points did.

                      You likely have a "4 wire" ECU as the older 5 wire would only be old junk OEM, mostly. so you only have 4 wires plus ground

                      Ground, the ECU must MUST be grounded. Scrape it and the firewall clean/ bare, use star lock washers

                      Two wires go to the distributor pickup

                      One goes to coil NEG

                      The last one goes to the "key" (high v) side of the ballast.
                       
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                      • oldmusclelover

                        oldmusclelover FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        thank you sir, it just dawned on me what you meant by the OLD regulator wire, and I'm going that route, but....still going to replace that wire because someone put a black wire there, and I'm going to keep it all blue. :) you are very helpful/knowledgeable, thanks.
                        not sure about this statement: VOLTAGE DROP in that path will cause the new (or old) system to OVER charge (over voltage) One way around it is to cut loose all underhood loads fed by the ignition run wire to the ignition/ regulator and use a relay in that circuit.
                        are you saying I should put a relay in the brown wire from the bulkhead? the yellow wire from starter relay goes to ignition, then comes back from ignition as brown, that is what I am connecting to my ballast resistor. is this correct?
                         
                      • 67Dart273

                        67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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                        No you want the relay in the "run."

                        so whatever color IGN1 (usually dark blue) where it comes out of the bulkhead, that is 12V in "run" position of key

                        Electrically cut that, use the bulkhead end coming from interior to trigger a relay. Feed the relay through a fuse/ breaker off the start relay big stud (battery) and take the engine harness end of the cut blue and connect that to the load contact of the relay

                        "How it works." When there is voltage drop in that circuit, the feed going to the VR power (IGN terminal) is also the SENSE wire. It senses voltage is low, and ramps up the alternator until that point (the VR ign terminal) is 14V. "Whatever" the voltage drop is through that circuit to the battery, resistance in that path causes drop there at the VR. So now it is 14, but the battery, which is isolated by the drop, is now seeing 14 + whatever the drop reading is
                         
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