water in the oil

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. MPH426

    MPH426 Active Member

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    Weeks ago, I had a rocker arm failure. I bought a whole new setup. After what seems like an eternity of waiting on parts. Yesterday, I was able to put the new set in.

    The engine is, what I think (there's no documentation on this) a '72 340. The heads are '72 that has been verified. They are high performance, at least those are the gaskets that fit the heads.

    I put it all back together, started the engine let it warm up for about ten minutes and started to set the valve lash. That's when I noticed what looks like water and oil mixed in the top of the rocker arms. The coolant is green.

    Rocker-Arm3.jpg

    My brother who is familiar with this car says that there's a bolt in the water pump that goes into the block and has to be covered with Permatex or it will cause this. There are two bolts that coolant will flow from if they are removed.

    Personally, I think it's more likely to be a leak at the front of the intake manifold where the radiator hose connects. Before I go tearing it all apart, I'd like some feedback on which is more likely.

    BTW, there's NO oil in the water.

    Thank You
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  2. Scody21

    Scody21 Just send it

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    Looks like you have pea soup. The water pump bolts do need sealant, but even without you’d only get a very light amount into the block from seepage. Could be the intake gaskets or the head gaskets. What do you mean by high profeomace gaskets?

    Personally if it is a 340 block, I’d pull the motor and do a refresh. Pea soup and bearings don’t get along and you’ll have more problems down the road. From bearing failure to whipping the cam out... just sayin...

    As for the date code and block size, it is cast into the side of the block and stamped into the front side of #1 cylinder near the deck. Vin is on the machined pan on the passenger side of the block right above the oil pan lip midway of block.
     
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    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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      There's also a water pump bolt that if too long a bolt is used it will bottom out against the outside of a cylinder and if is's continued to be torqued down on will result in cracking said cylinder. That would be a bad day.

      That said, what "I" would do is drive it. Put a few miles on it and see what happens. It "could be" left over coolant that got into the oil pan when the heads were removed, OR condensation that's set up in it. In either case, it will boil out of the oil and evaporate.

      If it does not after a couple of moderately long drives, well then, you have a problem.

      What head gaskets did you use? What were they made of? Were they stamped steel? If so and you did not coat them, they are likely leaking. More information here might help.
       
      Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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      • 512Stroker

        512Stroker We are all here because we are not all there.

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        For it to turn that color in that short of time you most likely have a gasket out of place. Start pulling out spark plugs if you find a wet one you have a head gasket problem. When you have all the plugs out crank the engine over and see if any coolant spits out of one of the plug holes. Anti freeze and bearings do not play nice get it fixed as soon as you can and flush out the oil sump.
         
      • MPH426

        MPH426 Active Member

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        Thanks for all the replies.
        First, the heads have not been pulled since I've owned it. It was running really strong with no cross contamination issues.
        Second, I do believe it may be the intake gasket. Just didn't want to pull it if I didn't have to. BTW I can see places on the intake gaskets that are discolored. Most all of them look like where oil has leaked out of the valve covers. This due to not tightening them while setting the valve lash.
        Third, Like I said I have two bolts that will spew coolant if I take them out. Most definitely will be sealing those! Thanks!
        Forth, Pulling the plugs is a great idea.
        Fifth, I can not get to the date coding on the block due to the headers being in the way. :)

        Thanks for all the replies. Very helpful!
         
        Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
      • Heywodja

        Heywodja The Heartbeat Stops Here FABO Gold Member

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        • Dana67Dart

          Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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          Do a pressure test on the cooling system
           
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          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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            Yup das good stuff!
             
          • George Jets

            George Jets 1967 Dart 2 Door FABO Gold Member

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            Pull the oil drain plug quick and let about a 1/2 pint of oil out. Water settles to the bottom of the pan. See how much water is there ??

            Can cut the oil filter open too for an inspection, that usually tells a lot without tearing down the engine.
             
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            • MoparMike1974

              MoparMike1974 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              I agree with the coolant system pressure test. The kit to do it is fairly cheap and a must have tool in my opinion. You can also pull the plugs and look for one with water droplets or that is very clean (steam cleaned) compared to the others. If you have new plugs in it this wont tell you anything.
              What all was done to the engine before the oil showed up? Did you have the heads off?
               
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              • RustyRatRod

                RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                You may well possibly be able to SEE the leak with the valve covers off looking into the intake valley as you pressure test it, if it's the intake gaskets.
                 
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                • Phreakish

                  Phreakish Well-Known Member

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                  Echoing others, I'd start by draining the oil. Water is a terrible lubricant...
                  With the oil pan drained, and the plug still out, do the pressure test. You should get a trickle of coolant out the drain plug if there is indeed a leak.
                  Like Rusty said, you may get lucky and see the coolant with the valve covers off and a close eye looking into the valley. It should puddle up pretty good around the lifters if it's the main coolant passage at the head. If not, it could be around the timing cover or water pump - but you said you did rockers, which wouldn't require removing the timing cover? If you didn't remove the timing cover, I wouldn't suspect it's your cause...

                  Depending on how much water got into the oil, ID be worried about the lifters. Entrapped water likes to eat steel. While the intake is off, it might be good to at least pump them in some clean oil... Or a soak in acetone followed by the oil pump up. I wouldn't get fixated on it, but it's only a few extra minutes while it's apart. Hydraulic lifters are finicky at best, better to not give them an excuse to misbehave.
                   
                • burdar

                  burdar Owen's Dad

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                  Did you change the oil at the same time you replaced the rockers or has the oil been in the engine while you were waiting on parts? I'd pressure test the cooling system but it could just be condensation. I get that milky crap in my oil catch can on my Ram all the time. It sits most of the time. If the cooling system pressure checks fine, then I'd just do an oil/filter change and keep an eye on it.
                   
                • AJ/FormS

                  AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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                  In my experience;
                  when water gets into the oil and the engine is or has been recently running, the oil is a frothy mess.
                  I don't see that in your pic.
                  So my question would be; is that "peasoup" just wash-out from your new rockershafts?
                   
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                  • MPH426

                    MPH426 Active Member

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                    I don't think so due to the amount of coolant in the pan when I drained it.

                    Put silicone sealer on the water pump bolts, picking up the pressure tester tomorrow after work (had to order one). Reports on Thursday.

                    Thanks again all for the helpful info and suggestions.
                     
                  • cudamark

                    cudamark FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    The timing cover/water pump gaskets and/or corrosion in the timing cover are common places for a small block to have water leaks into the oil. A pressure test should reveal that.....or a problem somewhere else.
                     
                  • MPH426

                    MPH426 Active Member

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                    Well, no pressure test needed... yet. It's leaking between the intake and block on passenger side at the rear of the engine. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get the manifold off. It's stuck like super glue.

                    The only place I used silicon was on the cork gaskets at both ends. A little on the top & bottom of the cork and a not overly generous amount where the the heads, block and intake meet. It just ain't budging.

                    I've got a 2lb dead blow hammer, it ain't helpin' at all. It's somewhat of a high rise. I don't have a pic but the part # is Mopar P4452803
                    I am glad that this IS a project car and I'm in no hurry. To misquote the Beatles, I AM the Tortoise. :lol:
                     
                  • cudamark

                    cudamark FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    I use a engine lift plate where the carb goes, and hook it to a cherry picker on those stubborn aluminum intakes.
                     
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                    • 512Stroker

                      512Stroker We are all here because we are not all there.

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                      Leaking oil or coolant?
                      There should not be any coolant at the back side of the engine, if it is coolant it must be leaking between the intake and the head and running done the back side of the block. Check for a cracked intake manifold.
                      Most folks no longer use the cork china walls gaskets anymore, just a good bead of gasket maker like Right Stuff will to the trick.
                       
                    • flyfish

                      flyfish C8H18+N2O = :-D

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                      Not saying this is right, but for the past 25+ years I have just cut the front of the seal with a knife or razor (horizontal area below the thermostat where the intake meets the block), then wedge a big flat blade screwdriver or pry bar in there and pop the intake up....eazy peasy.
                       
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                      • cudamark

                        cudamark FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        I've seen aluminum intakes damaged or broken doing that too.
                         
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                        • RustyRatRod

                          RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                          Put a motor plate on the carburetor pad and jack it up with an engine hoist.
                           
                        • j par

                          j par Well-hung Member

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                          Me.. I'd pull the motor and put all new gaskets.. that's just me...
                           
                        • Dartswinger70

                          Dartswinger70 Catch a wave youll be sittin on top of the world

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                          I seem to recall silicone around the water jackets on the heads along with the gaskets...been doing it ever since the first time I had a similar issue many years ago...
                           
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                          • MPH426

                            MPH426 Active Member

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                            Coolant. Be kinda weird to leak that much oil there. It's hard to tell EXACTLY where a leak is coming from with the engine put together and in the car. All I could see from the angle I had was it running off the block.

                            Thanks flyfish! That did the trick. I grabbed one of my pliable scrapers, centered it in the cork gasket, started at one side angled toward the center tapped it till I hit the center pin and repeated from the other size. It popped right off "eazy peasy" I took a wide flat blade screwdriver and put it in between the cork I'd split, just a couple of taps and the gaskets between it and the heads let loose. No damage to the intake or the block.

                            A new set of intake gaskets are in order. I'll have to borrow my neighbors granite surface plate to check the flatness of the milled surfaces. I was a machinist, he was a die setter. I'm sure we'll be able to manage.
                             
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