Wheelies - Hypothetical Combo

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If you look at those cars, they are all still lifting the rear bodywork a substantial amount, fighting pitch rotation. They are yanking the wheels with a very loose front end, and a BUNCH of power.
 
This first one is about the best mine does... lol.
No, seriously. 528" Hemi with two kits, mini tubbed with Caltracs and split mono leafs. 315 drag radials. Yes, it does real wheelies also. No pictures on this phone though.

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We were more worried about twisting the chassis into a pretzel than yanking the front wheels. lol
 
So, a discussion (winter bench racing about making the cars quicker) with friends came to the topic of a street strip car capable of a wheelie. We would like to do some track time soon. Yes, each set up is different, but what does it take? Also, I know with SS springs, the idea is lift in the rear vs squat so there is some fighting that too. More gear? More HP/TQ?

We can use my car as an example as an "average" car:

1971 Dodge Demon - all steel except hood, full stock interior
440 9:1 compression
ported iron heads
hyd flat tappet LSA 107° installed at 102° .518" lift duration 229/242 @50.
Weiand tunnel ram with Holley 660s
MSD Pro Billet ready to run distributor
2" headers, automatic RMVB
Current converter is incorrect 2500 - needs to be 4000-4200 tight (in my belief - also I would be willing to add a trans brake if needed) - next on my list
3.91 SG with 29.5x12.5 Hoosier Quick Time Pro
Super Stock springs (my case 002 spring on both sides).

*** PLEASE NO "6000 CONVERTERS, 6:17 GEARS, 4SPD CONVERSIONS, LIGHTEN THE CAR 1000LBS, 500HP NITROUS, TURBO, ETC. THIS IS FOR THE SAKE OF A CONVERSATION PLEASE"
Is wheelies your main objective?
 
Is wheelies your main objective?
Yes and no. I still want a hot street car. I would like to take it too the track also. But furthermore, I want to be able to do a wheelie sometime. Maybe this isn't the car, but we were bench racing and the topic came up...what would it take to get the car to wheelie?? More power, higher stall, trans brake, gearing etc. The issue is, most talks want to make it wheelie only. Crazy gears, super high stalls. Just beat the **** out of it. So. I came here. In my car example, what would be the recommendations to get there. Who has something similar that can. What is different, etc. Hope that makes sense
 
What's the whole set up? If you want to share
.030" over 413 about 9 5.1 stealth unported heads 230°@.050" .480" cam 750qft q-series carb, performer rpm intake Shumacher headers. 4,200 stall 727 3.73 8 3/4 . Suspension is ss springs clamped front segment no rear clamps, comp engineering rear shocks set on 3rd click and 90/10 calvert front shocks with stock v8 torsion bars no bump stops or sway bar.
 
Mine was driven on the street, but it wasn't a "street car". 400rwhp, ladders, 4.57 gears, 14x32 slicks, glide with a brake, and very light. And even that wouldn't wheelie on a less than great surface.
I had been racing at a small airport strip, where we occasionally had to stop for landing airplanes. I thought it was leaving good, winning some rounds.
Then a real strip opened. First launch WHOA! What the heck was THAT? OH, so THATS what a wheelie feels like!
They are a lot of fun, a worthwhile goal. Just seek your wheelie as a PART of going fast, not the end goal.
 
Mine was driven on the street, but it wasn't a "street car". 400rwhp, ladders, 4.57 gears, 14x32 slicks, glide with a brake, and very light. And even that wouldn't wheelie on a less than great surface.
I had been racing at a small airport strip, where we occasionally had to stop for landing airplanes. I thought it was leaving good, winning some rounds.
Then a real strip opened. First launch WHOA! What the heck was THAT? OH, so THATS what a wheelie feels like!
They are a lot of fun, a worthwhile goal. Just seek your wheelie as a PART of going fast, not the end goal.
That's great. Yes my plan was to have wheelie and fast together, not just wheelie
 
That's great. Yes my plan was to have wheelie and fast together, not just wheelie
If my 440 block is good I'm building a 440 or stroker for next year with more compression, bigger cam and porting the heads so it'll lift the tires and be faster.
 
Spring energy is 1/2kx^2, where k is the spring constant and x is the displacement of the spring.
Double the compression of the spring, you quadruple the energy.
So even if the rate (k) is half, you still get double the energy because of the increase in preload.
 
.030" over 413 about 9 5.1 stealth unported heads 230°@.050" .480" cam 750qft q-series carb, performer rpm intake Shumacher headers. 4,200 stall 727 3.73 8 3/4 . Suspension is ss springs clamped front segment no rear clamps, comp engineering rear shocks set on 3rd click and 90/10 calvert front shocks with stock v8 torsion bars no bump stops or sway bar.
What times are you running?
 
Spring energy is 1/2kx^2, where k is the spring constant and x is the displacement of the spring.
Double the compression of the spring, you quadruple the energy.
So even if the rate (k) is half, you still get double the energy because of the increase in preload.

Thats EXACTLY what happens. That stored energy by using a spring with less rate is a HUGE deal in pitch rotation.

IMO, I see a lot of cars at the track that skate of the starting line because the spring rate is too high in the front.

BUT!!! Once you get the spring rate where it needs to be you NEED a good double adjustable shock to control front end rise speed.

As @crackedback posted up above, you can get the front end rising too fast and that’s not good either. You can hit the bump stops and that will unload the rear tires.

So you have to be able to control the front end speed with the shocks. And those 9 way types can not do it. You need a shock that you can tune bump and rebound separately.
 
Thank you all. This is exactly the stuff I am looking for! For the /6 bars having, rise being easier and needed for my goal, how is that going to effect street driving? I do drive this car on longer road trips, longest being 5hrs each way. Will it compromise it too much? Should I also plate the lower control arms? Lighten the front more like the SS and PS cars of the day? Overall I am assuming more will need to get done, but I see/know the lightening of the front and planting the rear is key. Other ideas?
 
Mine was driven on the street, but it wasn't a "street car". 400rwhp, ladders, 4.57 gears, 14x32 slicks, glide with a brake, and very light. And even that wouldn't wheelie on a less than great surface.
I had been racing at a small airport strip, where we occasionally had to stop for landing airplanes. I thought it was leaving good, winning some rounds.
Then a real strip opened. First launch WHOA! What the heck was THAT? OH, so THATS what a wheelie feels like!
They are a lot of fun, a worthwhile goal. Just seek your wheelie as a PART of going fast, not the end goal.
I think we are on the same page. I have no thoughts of this doing a wheelie without a prepped track, if it ever got there in the first place. I do have a set of 32x14 slicks but just too tight to the wheel lips for comfort. Sheet metal can't be trimmed on this car.
 
Since we're in the General Forum, I offer this thinking:
On the street with street tires, wheelies are gonna cost you a lotta lotta money. and
even if the wheels come up, how far can the engine carry that?
---------------------------------
With 4.30s, and a small-cam engine, you'll be on the rev-limiter almost right away. Then, on the 1-2 shift, that small-cam engine will fall right off the power..... unless you stall it up, and then the top-end comes up too quick.
IMO,
for what you are attempting, you'll need a tighter 1-2 shift split. In the 727 the ratios are;
2.45-1.45-1.00 and the splits are
.59-.69; meaning that on the 1-2shift, the Rs will fall to .59(59%) of the shift rpm. If you shift at 5800, that would be 3420. That's a lotta lotta rpm to lose, for this type of exercise, and so the wheelie is over. The power of your 440 at 3240rpm will be way down. So this points straight to a higher stall.
______________________________
Another option, is a tighter 1-2 split.
My combo runs a 4-speed, with a GVod behind it.
the ratios are 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00-.78od but
I run the GearVendor as a splitter. So the first four ratios are;
3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50 with splits of; .78-.80-.78
This combo would allow me to run 3.73s for Roadgears of;
11.53-8.99-7.16-5.58
compared to your 727Roadgears with 4.30s at
10.54-6.24-4.30.. After figuring in the Torque Multiplication in the TC, your gears might look like;
19/1 at zero mph, diminishing to 12.68 at the 1-2 shift, going to 7.49 average thru Second, and 4.73 thru Third. Which is
19.97>12.68-7.49-4.73
now, my car, with a modest 367 runs 93 in the Eighth with a 2.2plus 60ft/ no wheelies, lol, but on an airport runway, spinning 325/50-15 BFG D/Rs most of the way, with 1.03 bars, with a best of 4 runs of 7.92.
By it's Trapspeed, and weight, that translates to 433hp using the Wallace Calculator. I'm pretty sure my 367 is not putting down that much power, so the Wallace doesn't know that I used 4 gears to get there, keeping the engine on or near, peak power, for the whole trip. Actually, the tach during this run was on 7000 after the initial run up, for the entire run. I thought the clutch was done, and that was the first thing I checked when I got back to the pits. But no, and that PP is still in there today, since 2004.
What I'm saying is, my engine was well over it's rpm of peak power, yet posted a pretty good trapspeed, and I credit the GVod tight-split ratios, for achieving that.

If you had one, and splitting, your ratios would be;
2.45-1.91-1.45-1.13-1.00-.78od; Obviously, you would not use 1.13 to 1.00 ratio, instead going straight from 1.13 to .78
your splits would then be; .78.-76-.78-.69 ;
and you would gear the car to trap in Second-over (1.13 ratio). To do that and achieve a ~4.30 final-drive, would require 3.80s, rounds to 3.73s or 3.91s; I choose 3.73s. So then your Roadgears would be;
9.14(1st)-7.13(1od)-5.41(2nd)-4.22(2od)-2.91(3od)
Again figuring in the TC this might look like;
16.45>11.88(1st)8.56(1od)-6.49(2nd)-5.06(2od)-
splits of .72(in the TC) -.72-.76-.78
and of course, with an overdrive of 2.91 cruising gear, 65=2270@zero-slip with 28s, say about 2340 on the tach.
Finally, again shifting at 5800, your Rs would fall to;
4180/4410/4520, at each successive shift.
you need a stall?
IMO; at the track, yes, the launch could still benifit. But
on the street with street tires; back to the Top:
Not hardly, unless you spend a lotta lotta cash, to make it hook, lol.
EDIT: Oh I see now that wheelies on the street are not on the table, lol

I like post #38

(To get the TC Torque-Multiplication numbers; I used 1.8 at zero mph diminishing to 1.3 at the 1-2 shift; then 1.2 average thru Second, and 1.1 in Third.)
 
Since we're in the General Forum, I offer this thinking:
On the street with street tires, wheelies are gonna cost you a lotta lotta money. and
even if the wheels come up, how far can the engine carry that?
---------------------------------
With 4.30s, and a small-cam engine, you'll be on the rev-limiter almost right away. Then, on the 1-2 shift, that small-cam engine will fall right off the power..... unless you stall it up, and then the top-end comes up too quick.
IMO,
for what you are attempting, you'll need a tighter 1-2 shift split. In the 727 the ratios are;
2.45-1.45-1.00 and the splits are
.59-.69; meaning that on the 1-2shift, the Rs will fall to .59(59%) of the shift rpm. If you shift at 5800, that would be 3420. That's a lotta lotta rpm to lose, for this type of exercise, and so the wheelie is over. The power of your 440 at 3240rpm will be way down. So this points straight to a higher stall.
______________________________
Another option, is a tighter 1-2 split.
My combo runs a 4-speed, with a GVod behind it.
the ratios are 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00-.78od but
I run the GearVendor as a splitter. So the first four ratios are;
3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50 with splits of; .78-.80-.78
This combo would allow me to run 3.73s for Roadgears of;
11.53-8.99-7.16-5.58
compared to your 727Roadgears with 4.30s at
10.54-6.24-4.30.. After figuring in the Torque Multiplication in the TC, your gears might look like;
19/1 at zero mph, diminishing to 12.68 at the 1-2 shift, going to 7.49 average thru Second, and 4.73 thru Third. Which is
19.97>12.68-7.49-4.73
now, my car, with a modest 367 runs 93 in the Eighth with a 2.2plus 60ft/ no wheelies, lol, but on an airport runway, spinning 325/50-15 BFG D/Rs most of the way, with 1.03 bars, with a best of 4 runs of 7.92.
By it's Trapspeed, and weight, that translates to 433hp using the Wallace Calculator. I'm pretty sure my 367 is not putting down that much power, so the Wallace doesn't know that I used 4 gears to get there, keeping the engine on or near, peak power, for the whole trip. Actually, the tach during this run was on 7000 after the initial run up, for the entire run. I thought the clutch was done, and that was the first thing I checked when I got back to the pits. But no, and that PP is still in there today, since 2004.
What I'm saying is, my engine was well over it's rpm of peak power, yet posted a pretty good trapspeed, and I credit the GVod tight-split ratios, for achieving that.

If you had one, and splitting, your ratios would be;
2.45-1.91-1.45-1.13-1.00-.78od; Obviously, you would not use 1.13 to 1.00 ratio, instead going straight from 1.13 to .78
your splits would then be; .78.-76-.78-.69 ;
and you would gear the car to trap in Second-over (1.13 ratio). To do that and achieve a ~4.30 final-drive, would require 3.80s, rounds to 3.73s or 3.91s; I choose 3.73s. So then your Roadgears would be;
9.14(1st)-7.13(1od)-5.41(2nd)-4.22(2od)-2.91(3od)
Again figuring in the TC this might look like;
16.45>11.88(1st)8.56(1od)-6.49(2nd)-5.06(2od)-
splits of .72(in the TC) -.72-.76-.78
and of course, with an overdrive of 2.91 cruising gear, 65=2270@zero-slip with 28s, say about 2340 on the tach.
Finally, again shifting at 5800, your Rs would fall to;
4180/4410/4520, at each successive shift.
you need a stall?
IMO; at the track, yes, the launch could still benifit. But
on the street with street tires; back to the Top:
Not hardly, unless you spend a lotta lotta cash, to make it hook, lol.
EDIT: Oh I see now that wheelies on the street are not on the table, lol

I like post #38

(To get the TC Torque-Multiplication numbers; I used 1.8 at zero mph diminishing to 1.3 at the 1-2 shift; then 1.2 average thru Second, and 1.1 in Third.)
Wow, that's lots to digest. Yes wheelie concept would be at a prepped track with slicks, I get that for sure. Just feeling out what that would take in people eyes, ideas and real world combinations. Hopefully something similar that is able to do just that...wheelie. I, as OP, have my combo on the first post.
 
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