Which Carb Gives a Balance of Power & MPG?

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archlab

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Car & Drivetrain: 1968 B/Cuda Convertible. 318 from 1985 5th Ave. Stock, possibly Stock +1 cam, 4spd manual trans w/ 3.23 Rear End. Dual Exhaust...generally, moderately Hot-Rodded.

Currently, I'm running a Road Demon 625cfm carb. I don't know my MPG yet, as the carb has only been on for about 20 miles or so. But the power is GrEat! I did have an older Holley 600cfm carb which gave so-so power, but incredible MPG.

From my experience, I suspect that the road Demon MPG will drop.

Question: Which Carb is gonna keep the Performance & MPG at a high level?
I'm considering a Road Demon, JR (625cfm), but can't tell if it is designed to improve MPG over the Road Demon or not.

Edlebrock's seem to work well & I've gotten decent MPG & good power on my 1968 D100 P/U. Maybe that's the one? Lord knows they are a lot cheaper.

Your info is appreciated.
 
I would go with the holley 600 V/S carb and have it jetted and drilled to for motor to get the power and the mileage,or smileage,mrmopartech
 
A Thermoquad or Q-jet. Both have small primaries but when you hammer them they will flow up to 800 cfm.


Chuck
 
I'd go with the Holley 600,demon carbs are "garbage" plain and simple..thermoquads or "thermobogs" as we were refered to them back in the day aren't much better,then again i wouldn't trust a "plastic" carb....
 
it really depends on how its set up.a holley,carter,or edelbrock can all give the decent mileage/power if tuned correctly.ive had good results with TQs,but they can be a pain to tune.
 
it really depends on how its set up.a holley,carter,or edelbrock can all give the decent mileage/power if tuned correctly.ive had good results with TQs,but they can be a pain to tune.

Which carb gives the best MPG and power?....the one that's tuned correctly runs the most efficiently! There's no one carb that's going to be the golden ticket out of the box. Keep what ya got as long as it's in the right CFM range and tune it...if you have the Demon and the Holley...tune both and use the one that responds the best. Dont waste money buying an Edelbrock...
 
Probably a good spreadbore type carb like a Thermoquad will be decent with gas mileage (as much as you could expect) and still give you plenty of get up and go when you need it.
 
From my experience a quadrajet will give you best economy with performance as compared to a holley.
The trick with most carbs being setup correctly is having the idle circuit working right. If you adjust the butterflies past a certain point to get idle speed right you end up past the idle circuit slot which will have an adverse effect on economy and will usually bog when you stand on it.
 
I run an Edelbrock (Carter AFB actually) on my Duster because the metering rod system and demand-type secondaries are more versatile than Holleys. Not only is it less sensitive to incorrect tuning but changes the A/F ratio based on engine load/vacuum. You can change the jet AND metering rod sizes so that under WOT the A/F will be ideal for max power (~12.5:1) and under part-throttle cruising the A/F will be leaner for max fuel economy (~15.5:1). They are also less sensitive to changing atmospheric conditions such as altitude, humidity, and temperature. I'll admit I haven't tried a Holley yet but I just wanted to stick up for the Edelbrocks because it seems everybody knocks on them for no apparent reason...

Oh and the ThermoQuad is arguably the most advanced carburetor ever put on cars. FAR more sophisticated than any Holley and in the right hands can give great gas mileage and power, but it is difficult to get tuned right because of how complicated it is. And that "untrustworthy" plastic (actually phenolic) center section keeps the fuel about 25*F cooler than an all-aluminum carb which is GREAT for the crappy oxygenated and ethanol-infused pump gas we have nowadays. The trick is finding one with the least amount of smog add-ons (typically early-mid '70s) that originally came from an engine the same size as yours.
 
Oh and the ThermoQuad is arguably the most advanced carburetor ever put on cars. FAR more sophisticated than any Holley and in the right hands can give great gas mileage and power, but it is difficult to get tuned right because of how complicated it is

Well who wants to run a carb like that,simplicity is always best..we use to take the "thermobogs" off and throw them away i can tune a Holley or better yet my Quickfuel very easily, thermobogs are a pain to tune and adjust certainly not worth the trouble..
 
If you want the best combination of power and economy EFI hands down.

Unless you drive a lot of miles you won't beable to justify the cost based on fuel savings though. I would stick with either of the carbs you have and get them dialed in even if it means taking it to someone that is experienced. And if you do, if they don't use a wide band O2 sensor & dyno to verify then find some one else.

The Road Demon Jr is just a cheaper version of the Road Demon, it has less adjustability than the Road Demon.
 
My True preference would be EFI. That's on the future agenda.
 
Well who wants to run a carb like that,simplicity is always best..we use to take the "thermobogs" off and throw them away i can tune a Holley or better yet my Quickfuel very easily, thermobogs are a pain to tune and adjust certainly not worth the trouble..

Uhh, how about ME? Simplicity is better when it comes to an all-out performance engine but if you want max MPG along with great throttle response and WOT power it's hard to beat a spread-bore carb with metering rods and demand-type secondaries... but hey, who wants MPG on a classic Mopar, right...?
 
I'm getting a little more appreciation for that 'complicated-plastic carb'. I may try a TQ. They seem to be pretty cheap for the reman'd ones & I also dig what you said abt the lower fuel temps - I do use E85 quite a bit, so that's appealing. Just gotta make sure the gaskets can handle the alky fuel.
 
One question: Wouldn't a TQ be a little too much carb for a 318 (also, I've got one hella built 273 to consider as well)?
 
You can change the jet AND metering rod sizes so that under WOT the A/F will be ideal for max power (~12.5:1) and under part-throttle cruising the A/F will be leaner for max fuel economy (~15.5:1).

Maybe I'm opening a can-O-worms beyond the scope of a web discussion, but is there an economical way to get those ratios & diagnostics? Or maybe the better question is: How do you 'plug-in' to say, software to actually give readings? Is it as simple as tapping a sensor into the carb, or manifolds?


I imagine that to get into that kind of tuning, one has to get pretty serious about carb tuning (& maybe do it for a living).
 
It will cost more, but you probably can get the closest to having the best of both words by going with EFI.
 
I'd go with the Holley 600,demon carbs are "garbage" plain and simple..thermoquads or "thermobogs" as we were refered to them back in the day aren't much better,then again i wouldn't trust a "plastic" carb....

Well who wants to run a carb like that,simplicity is always best..we use to take the "thermobogs" off and throw them away i can tune a Holley or better yet my Quickfuel very easily, thermobogs are a pain to tune and adjust certainly not worth the trouble..

While you have excellent points, I also will agree to disagree here on the T-Q's abilty.

I'm getting a little more appreciation for that 'complicated-plastic carb'. I may try a TQ. They seem to be pretty cheap for the reman'd ones & I also dig what you said abt the lower fuel temps - I do use E85 quite a bit, so that's appealing. Just gotta make sure the gaskets can handle the alky fuel.
Contact "Demonsizzler" here for a better carb than a "Re-man" garbage unit. His prices are very good and so is his service.

One question: Wouldn't a TQ be a little too much carb for a 318 (also, I've got one hella built 273 to consider as well)?
No, the small primary T-Q is an excellent choice for a stock/street strip small engine. The bigger primary T-Q may very well be to much for a mild small cid engine.

Maybe I'm opening a can-O-worms beyond the scope of a web discussion, but is there an economical way to get those ratios & diagnostics? Or maybe the better question is: How do you 'plug-in' to say, software to actually give readings? Is it as simple as tapping a sensor into the carb, or manifolds?


I imagine that to get into that kind of tuning, one has to get pretty serious about carb tuning (& maybe do it for a living).

I'll first start with the cheapest way to help tune your carb;

A simple Edelbrock 02 sensor. Weld a bung onto the headers collestor (Not reducer) and screw in the sensor, plug into the monitor and a simple 3 wire hook up and your reading the exhaust.

A more expensive unit but much better is this one which can monitor both sides of the exhaust at the same time. A little pricey, but worth it IMO; http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-170402/

Unless your wanting to measure the exhaust directly in terms of what exactly is comeing out the tail pipe, a auto shop is probably the only way your going to find out since machines that do this are not exactly for sale at the local speed shop. And used one are a bit pricey for the home Hot Rodder like us. You could search E-bay or other places to find one.

About carbs

As I agreed with Stroked 340, a T-Q can very well be a pain to tune, even more so if your not used to dealing with them. Taking them apart is a pain to get to the jets though rods are super easy to change.

Every point of the T-Q has a measurement that must be met in order for it to work correctly. This carb is a little touchy in this manor. If something is outta wack, the carb acts ill.

One thing about a T-Q is it's enemy, HEAT! The plastic main body of the carb can warp/crack with to much heat. The best defense aginst heat are the basics. The T-Q came from the factory with a thick gasket. This should be used at all times. Blocking the intake manifold heat is another plus. While it hurts warm up times, the extra heat from the engine due to increased cam size (Heat from more power being created) and headers (Direct heat) can hurt the carb and should be delt with so it doesn't hurt the carb.

Of the few draw backs of the T-Q, the one that upsets me the most is the lack of electric choke or the pain in hooking up a manual choke cable.
Electric choke T-Q's are out there and there all the small primary version. Mostly seen with a "Chevy" arm, a MoPar armed unit is out there.

The Quadrajet, the other spreadbore carb, is also a very good carb for the mileage power search. How ever, no matter what carb you choose, proper jetting/timing, fuel octane will get you the best mileage out of the carb. After all, a poorly jetted carb of any style will suck for mileage and power.

I myself am used to dealing with the Carter carbs. Being part of the "Poor boy" racing club, you learn to deal with what you can afford. Once I had a Holley and broke the base plate. Since (At the time) I paid $200 for the carb, they (All the speed shops) wanted $100 or better for a base plate. Sorry, I just can't afford this type of price on a replacement part. I'll get the whole danm carb for $20 at a swap meet.

So I learned the OE carbs. And they perform preety good for a stock carb. After awhile, I just couldn't see spending money on a Holley when I'm standing toe to toe on the street with my $20 junk pig iron. rebuilt with a $25 kit.
 
Check this out: http://www.carburetor.ca/Tech/Carter/tqguide-Vaanth.html

As far as tuning, the best way to tune a carbureted (sp?) car is by a wide-band oxygen sensor put in the exhaust manifold and hooked up to a real-time A/F ratio meter. You simply drive the car, look at the meter under different throttle conditions, and swap jets and metering rods until the ratio is where it should be.

EDIT: Whoops, Rumblefish beat me to it...
 
It will cost more, but you probably can get the closest to having the best of both words by going with EFI.
x2...but unless you are going to drive the car a ton you will never recoupe the money. There is a member here that sells the F.A.S.T. stuff, might want to contact him about the capabilites of EFI. On Richards website http://www.fastmanefi.com/TheMPGPage.htm he makes mention of a 25 mpg small block with no loss of performance. He has yet to write the article, but explained to me the premise of it, and it made sense to me....years ago we had pretty good luck tuning a Holley spreadbore carb. As long as we drove sanely my car got pretty decent fuel mileage, far better than a Holley 600vs or AFB....
 
When I saw this post I knew this would take off!! I've heard the same arguments and opinions for 30 years :) That being said, In my opinion the best carbs for milage and power were the spread bores, ThermoQuad and Quadrajets, when properly set up. Another feature that a lot of people overlook is the adjustable air valve setup on Carter AVS and Thermoquad, as well as the Quadrajet. This allows one to slow or speed the secondary opening perfectly to the needs of most engines, Especially 273's and 318's.

One question: Wouldn't a TQ be a little too much carb for a 318 (also, I've got one hella built 273 to consider as well)?

I prefer Carters, since my main use is the street, and milage was always a concern. I tried Holleys but always seemed to have to Futz with them to keep them running the way I liked. I got rid of all the Holleys I had, years ago. Once the others were set up, I was done. While living in South Dakota I could get mid to high twenties for Miles per Gallon highway cruising in a 64 Barracuda with a 273 using a 71 340 TQ. As for the rest of the discussion rumblefish360 has pretty much nailed it.
 
I'd stick with the carb you've got. You would have to drive a lot of miles and get a big difference in gas mileage to justify the expense. Probably the same is true for a wideband, but I still recommend getting one.

I like the Holley/Demon stuff. I would choose a street avenger over a demon, but that's just personal preference. Power is typically better with Holleys than Edelbrocks (though on a mostly stock application there's probably no difference at all).

Something very important to remember is that timing (vacuum advance, etc) plays a significant part in fuel mileage and power. Getting that dialed is important.
 
Do you have a multi spark box on that car?
There good to have for some extra MPG's.
 
I've always found the Carter / Edelbrock carbs to offer the ideal blend of economy and performance .

Holleys are decent carbs , but they seem to be a carb which needs constant attention , which is annoying on a street-driven car .

Remember : Edelbrock's carbs are -updated- Carter units : AFB ( Aluminum Four Barrel ) and AVS ( Air Valve Secondary ) , and were O.E.M. to our beloved MoPars !

The ThermoQuad was the right carb at the right time . Gas quality was dropping tremendously ; emissions-reducing caca was ever increasing in its presence , which means higher engine operating temps in order to help burn-off offending chemicals ; and the O.E.M. Holleys and AVS carbs were aging at that time .

ThermoQuads defied conventional carb thinking : an 800 cfm carb on a 318/340/360 street engine ? 850 cfm on 400/440 ?
The 1971 340 is arguably the best year , as the addition of the T-Quad brought its power up .
It was supposedly refactored to 310 h.p. in racing sanctions !

But , again , as usual for me , I divulge .
Go with -- imo -- a 600 cfm AVS ( a/k/a "Thunder Series" ) Edelbrock .
 
Car & Drivetrain: 1968 B/Cuda Convertible. 318 from 1985 5th Ave. Stock, possibly Stock +1 cam, 4spd manual trans w/ 3.23 Rear End. Dual Exhaust...generally, moderately Hot-Rodded.

Currently, I'm running a Road Demon 625cfm carb. I don't know my MPG yet, as the carb has only been on for about 20 miles or so. But the power is GrEat! I did have an older Holley 600cfm carb which gave so-so power, but incredible MPG.

LXguy "I'd stick with the carb you've got. You would have to drive a lot of miles and get a big difference in gas mileage to justify the expense."

I have to agree. I'd give your new carb a chance and dial it in before I got another.
 
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