Wideband O2 Sensor location advise

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mullinax95

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I bought a AEM Wideband to install in my 67 cuda in order to nail down the AFRs.

What I have is a Eddy Airgap intake with Holley 750 HP carb, TTI headers, and X-pipe.

I don't have a open spacer under the carb in order to combine both left and right venturies for a correct signal to the O2 sensor. I have such close hood to carb gap that I can't install a open spacer.

The question I have is where is the best location for the 02 sensor? The question almost answers itself because there really isn't anywhere else to install it.

However... you might know a alternative or something that I'm over looking.

Thanks
IMG_3707.jpg
 
I bought a AEM Wideband to install in my 67 cuda in order to nail down the AFRs.

What I have is a Eddy Airgap intake with Holley 750 HP carb, TTI headers, and X-pipe.

I don't have a open spacer under the carb in order to combine both left and right venturies for a correct signal to the O2 sensor. I have such close hood to carb gap that I can't install a open spacer.

The question I have is where is the best location for the 02 sensor? The question almost answers itself because there really isn't anywhere else to install it.

However... you might know a alternative or something that I'm over looking.

Thanks
View attachment 1715149010


I assume you are going to permanently mount it.

The O2 sensor itself can be mounted at or just after the collector anywhere on the pipe except at or near the bottom of the pipe, Mount it somewhere it is up and out of the way.

Your split plane manifold feeds two pairs of cylinders on either side of the motor. In other words two cylinders on each side. So, don't worry too much about only having the sensor permanently mounted on just one side. I have a dual O2 sensor wideband, and the readings are virtually the same on both sides of my motors.

You can weld a bung on each side of the exhaust, verify both sides are essentially equal, or not and then leave one side plugged. Use anti-seize on the bung threads, but be careful not to get any on the O2 sensor tip.
 
You can weld a bung on each side of the exhaust, verify both sides are essentially equal, or not and then leave one side plugged. Use anti-seize on the bung threads, but be careful not to get any on the O2 sensor tip.

OMG! Thanks.... I didn't think of that.
The instructions state that the sensor needs to mounted 18" past the collector (I should have mentioned that earlier). In my case that is where the x-pipe starts.... so I thought it would be best mounted just after the x-pipe.... after both pipes have merged and exhaust gases have collected together.
Sounds like I'm a little over concerned.

What is the ideal afr at idle? My Dodge ram stays right on 14.7 most of the time but however it is EFI.
Also what about cruise?
By doing some research it seems everyone has different afrs in mind on the subject.
 
The intake is a dual plane and 2 cyl get fuel from left and 2 cyl from right, even with 1 O2 your getting both sides of the carb
 
OMG! Thanks.... I didn't think of that.
The instructions state that the sensor needs to mounted 18" past the collector (I should have mentioned that earlier). In my case that is where the x-pipe starts.... so I thought it would be best mounted just after the x-pipe.... after both pipes have merged and exhaust gases have collected together.
Sounds like I'm a little over concerned.

What is the ideal afr at idle? My Dodge ram stays right on 14.7 most of the time but however it is EFI.
Also what about cruise?
By doing some research it seems everyone has different afrs in mind on the subject.

The reason they say to put the sensor right after the collector is because they want it in the high exhaust heat area of the pipe.
I went by the pipe discoloration and it did happen to be right after the collector connection.

Putting it in the upper half of the pipe helps to insure condensation and such doesn't contaminate the sensor.

Idle A/F ratio's are kind of a personal preference IMO depending on what kind of idle you want.
I run mine on the lean side because I like the way the cam sounds there. 15.5-16.5 at idle.
Cruise AFR is up around the same area, and then comes down around 12-12.5 at higher loads and RPM's.
I also run lots of timing, so my cruise advance runs up into the low 50's but drops back to about 32 at WOT.

Don't know if you have seen it yet or not, but they also want the engine and exhaust run up to temp and then the sensor removed to fresh air and recalibrated before you can really trust what the reading is.
Kind of a break in period for the sensor itself.
 
The O2 always gets a fresh air sample when it cools down, that's how they work and they say never solder a O2 sensor wire always crimp if you do a repair. When they heat up and they wont work under 600*F they push the air out through the wire and when they cool down the fresh air sample gets pulled back to the sensor through the wire.
 
I would probably just follow the instructions.

The instructions don't mention anything about a X-pipe being in the exhaust system. It states must be 18" from exhaust collector. This is where I'm confused... I guess I will mount it right after the X-pipe.

Thanks to everyone... you have cleared up some confusion I was having.
 
I would just go closer to the collector, the 18" is the the max from the collector I would get it closer to the collector. The farther from the engine the less heat you get. The O2 needs heat to work.
 
I would just go closer to the collector, the 18" is the the max from the collector I would get it closer to the collector. The farther from the engine the less heat you get. The O2 needs heat to work.

You know what... I'm glad I went back and read the instructions...lol

It says "exhaust port" not "collector" like I mentioned. I have a wideband on my truck but the exhaust is laid out difference and there was no guessing.

"A weld-in M18 X 1.5 boss is supplied for sensor installation. Mount the O2 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high EGT's (over 800C), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM for extended periods of time or plan on running leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches or more downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat. On turbocharged engines the UEGO sensor must be installed after the turbo charger, if not, the pressure differential will greatly affect the accuracy of the unit. For accurate readings, the sensor must be mounted before catalytic converters and/or auxiliary air pumps. To prevent collection of liquids between the sensor housing and sensor element during the cold start phase, the installation angle should be inclined at least 10° from horizontal with the electrical connection upwards, see below. (Figure 8)"

I believe on my car I can squeeze in the o2 sensor between the collector and X-pipe... this is what I really need to do.
 
What is the ideal afr at idle? My Dodge ram stays right on 14.7 most of the time but however it is EFI.
Thats a balance between reducing emmisions, keeping the cat happy, maximizing fuel economy for that particular engine. The cat will cleanup the high NOx. Pre-cat smog control targetted 14.2 at idle, and did it in combination with retarding timing and increasing idle speed to offset that. That's right in the Service manuals and tech bulletins.
Also what about cruise?
As lean as it will tolerate at interstate speeds.
By doing some research it seems everyone has different afrs in mind on the subject.
Even throwing out all of the opinions based on conjecture and hearsay, there really is no single answer. There are general trends that were well established by testing and then the details vary with specific application.

If you're just going for engine effiency (in terms of making good power for amount of fuel used) and not dealing with emissions requirements, then the general trend of AFR needs can be described as follows:

"The [relationship] is rich idle, lean cruise, leaner (leanest, actually) part-throttle acceleration and rich WOT. The leanest is at mid-load, half-throttle or" somewhat more. Cruising, especially at lower speeds, requires little throttle and puts relatively little load on the engine. Half throttle or mid-load would be going up hills or part throttle acceleration. "The thing to understand is most engines respond to being leaner...at part-throttle..."

In summary "at moderate to mid load, engines will run lean and like it, and burn much less gas while doing so. They must be rich at idle and very low load, lean in the middle, and rich at WOT." The load where richer is needed varies with engine, gearing and vehicle. It may be 60-70% as shown here, or as high as 90%. Load relates to manifold vacuum, and therefore is used to signal the point where enrichment is needed.
blob-jpg-jpg.jpg

F is Fuel/Air ratio for gasoline. Invert the numbers to convert to Air/Fuel ratio.
0.08 = 12.5 AFR
0.667 = 14.7 AFR
0.06 = 16.6 AFR
Constant power is any steady throttle condition.
Steady 15% might be something like driving 40 mph on a flat.
Steady 25% might be cruising 60 mph on flat or steady 40 mph up a long grade.
Steady 100 % might be something like towing or dragging max load up up a really steep long grade, foot to the floor, without losing or gaining speed.

The acceleration loop shows that maximum acceleration (full throttle) has about the the same fuel-air needs as constant 100 % power.

"This ... graph is from Walter B. Larew, Carburetors and Carburetion. At the time he wrote his book on carburetors he was a retired Brigadier General who taught Military Science at Cornell, among his other accomplishments. He published this carb book in 1967. He didn't specify an engine type for this graph but his information is in the context of engines in general. His sources were most likely military aviation research. The math in his book is from NACA TR-49 and similar publications.
This graph is representative of a richer part-throttle that may be necessary to tolerate with an engine that has radical valve timing and perhaps not so good A/F distribution at part-throttle."

quotes and graph from Tuner on Innovate Motorsports Forum and full text now reposted at RFS
 
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That's some great info mattax... I appreciate it.

I'm going to clean up my exhaust between the header flange and mufflers. My X-pipe is "homemade" by the muffler shop I took it too. I have never been real happy with it.

I bought a new Flowtech X-pipe in which looks like it will flow better and two Hedman Oxygen Sensor Reducers.
Also bought one Oxygen Sensor Bung to plug up one of the O2 outlets on the reducer.

After finding the reducers ... this answers my question about where to put the oxygen sensor. :rolleyes:

I will switch the O2 sensor back and forth and see how they read on each side of the engine's exhaust.
 
That's some great info mattax... I appreciate it.

I'm going to clean up my exhaust between the header flange and mufflers. My X-pipe is "homemade" by the muffler shop I took it too. I have never been real happy with it.

I bought a new Flowtech X-pipe in which looks like it will flow better and two Hedman Oxygen Sensor Reducers.
Also bought one Oxygen Sensor Bung to plug up one of the O2 outlets on the reducer.

After finding the reducers ... this answers my question about where to put the oxygen sensor. :rolleyes:

I will switch the O2 sensor back and forth and see how they read on each side of the engine's exhaust.

Just make sure to install those reducers so the O2 sensor is angled downward (so moisture doesn't collect on the tip). Hopefully that doesn't put it in a spot that's impossible to get to since the flanges on your headers are welded.
 
Just make sure to install those reducers so the O2 sensor is angled downward (so moisture doesn't collect on the tip). Hopefully that doesn't put it in a spot that's impossible to get to since the flanges on your headers are welded.

Yeah I was worried about that. Looked through the reviews and found this: "The Hedman Hedders 21142 allows you to rotate the sensor to any position and eliminated my problem"

I assume the reducers flange is not welded to the reducer so it will rotate. I will know for sure today since my order will be arriving.
 
Yeah I was worried about that. Looked through the reviews and found this: "The Hedman Hedders 21142 allows you to rotate the sensor to any position and eliminated my problem"

I assume the reducers flange is not welded to the reducer so it will rotate. I will know for sure today since my order will be arriving.

Good point. The reviews make it sound like the reducers aren't welded, so you should be good to go.
 
Good point. The reviews make it sound like the reducers aren't welded, so you should be good to go.

My shipment arrived today and the reducers aren't welded.

The X-pipe is a work of art. Very nice welds and will flow much better than the homemade version I have now.
 
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