Bad omen for the value of 69 M-Code Cudas

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jimharvard

jimharvard

JimHarvard
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as many of those here on FABO may know, the 69 M-Code 440 Cudas are the most valuable of all 67-69 Barracudas produced. i have a 340 68 Barracuda and a 69 383 Cuda, but always wanted a 69 440 M-Code. about a year ago, i was finally able to acquire one.

i've watched the market for the M cars for at least 5 years. by around 2012 after the "2008 Recession" had finally ended somewhat, i started to see 69 440 Cudas showing up at various national car auctions and selling for between $45 and $60k. then around 2015, a B-5 Blue "perfect" fastback from out West sold for a staggering $72k! because of this massive increase in value, i tried to find out more about this car and was able to track down the seller. according to him, the car was the first M-Code Cuda produced. i was never able to confirm that but apparently "someone" thought that particular car was worth a lot more money than all the other M cars out there and shelled out $72k.

in the last two years, the M Cudas have been selling for anywhere from $15k for rusty incomplete cars; $32k for a complete and running example that needs total restoration; and very nice "restored" examples at the auctions going again for between $45k to $60k. at least that WAS the market up to today, July 1, 2017.

the below car was listed on ebay for sale about a year ago as a rusty incomplete car. i bid on the car but did not get it and "believe" it sold for around $15k. then about a month ago the car showed up on ebay again completely restored and in PERFECT condition. the owner had found a LOT of NOS parts and the restoration was top notch. he advertised the car twice on ebay and the highest bid he received was around $50k. he listed the car recently a third time and sold it today for - wait for it - $40300.00! in the prior auctions, he noted that in the $50k auction, the "reserve" had not been met. so given the amount of time, work and hard to find parts he put in the car, i'm sure he had $60k or more in it. i was "stunned" that he let it go for $40k. i'm sure he had a reason for doing that, but given the excellent condition of the car, that price was a BARGAIN!

i hope the market is not collapsing for these cars. i do not plan on selling the one i have but any significant decline in the value of the second generation Barracudas will have unintended consequences for those of us who own them. if the value of our cars drop, there will not be as many restored which means the availability of restoration parts may decline. maybe the M car that sold today for $20k less than it should is just an anomaly. i hope so. here's that car:

s-l1600.jpg


s-l1600 (7).jpg


s-l1600 (11).jpg
 
I am not an expert, but I believe the 68 SS Hemi cars are more valuable.
 
jimharvard said:
as many of those here on FABO may know, the 69 M-Code 440 Cudas are the most valuable of all 67-69 Barracudas produced. i have a 340 68 Barracuda and a 69 383 Cuda, but always wanted a 69 440 M-Code. about a year ago, i was finally able to acquire one.

i've watched the market for the M cars for at least 5 years. by around 2012 after the "2008 Recession" had finally ended somewhat, i started to see 69 440 Cudas showing up at various national car auctions and selling for between $45 and $60k. then around 2015, a B-5 Blue "perfect" fastback from out West sold for a staggering $72k! because of this massive increase in value, i tried to find out more about this car and was able to track down the seller. according to him, the car was the first M-Code Cuda produced. i was never able to confirm that but apparently "someone" thought that particular car was worth a lot more money than all the other M cars out there and shelled out $72k.

in the last two years, the M Cudas have been selling for anywhere from $15k for rusty incomplete cars; $32k for a complete and running example that needs total restoration; and very nice "restored" examples at the auctions going again for between $45k to $60k. at least that WAS the market up to today, July 1, 2017.

the below car was listed on ebay for sale about a year ago as a rusty incomplete car. i bid on the car but did not get it and "believe" it sold for around $15k. then about a month ago the car showed up on ebay again completely restored and in PERFECT condition. the owner had found a LOT of NOS parts and the restoration was top notch. he advertised the car twice on ebay and the highest bid he received was around $50k. he listed the car recently a third time and sold it today for - wait for it - $40300.00! in the prior auctions, he noted that in the $50k auction, the "reserve" had not been met. so given the amount of time, work and hard to find parts he put in the car, i'm sure he had $60k or more in it. i was "stunned" that he let it go for $40k. i'm sure he had a reason for doing that, but given the excellent condition of the car, that price was a BARGAIN!

i hope the market is not collapsing for these cars. i do not plan on selling the one i have but any significant decline in the value of the second generation Barracudas will have unintended consequences for those of us who own them. if the value of our cars drop, there will not be as many restored which means the availability of restoration parts may decline. maybe the M car that sold today for $20k less than it should is just an anomaly. i hope so. here's that car:

View attachment 1715062681

View attachment 1715062683

View attachment 1715062684
Click to expand...

Did that car have numbers:

Motor?

Original Fender Tag? No issues/doubts?

Buildsheet?

How many panels needed replacing for the resto?

Fact of the matter, it's a 440 4bbl automatic car. A comparable docs pre resto condition 70 Challenger 440 4bbl auto is $50-$60K car. With a lot bigger buying audience.

Also I think timing is an issue. M-code A-bodies are a niche market, more savvy than average. A smaller group of buyers. That cars' pre resto condition was fresh in the mind of a lot of potential buyers.

Sometimes a little time allows the current condition to stand on its own. This red M-code might change few hands, a couple years will go by, it's history will be forgotten some, and bs embellishments added by used car sellers. It'll be advertised for $69-75K and actually sold for $58K-$60K
 
RustyRatRod said:
I am not an expert, but I believe the 68 SS Hemi cars are more valuable.
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rustyratrod...

you are correct, i stand corrected... the BO 68 Hemi Barracudas ARE the most valuable second gen. cudas out there. i don't really consider those cars in the same category as the 69 M-Code Cudas as the BO cars were strictly "race" cars while the M cars were made to be driven on the street. but you are correct - i don't think you can buy a real 68 BO Hemi Barracuda (if you can find one) for less than $250k.
 
autoxcuda said:
Did that car have numbers:

Motor?

Original Fender Tag? No issues/doubts?

Buildsheet?

How many panels needed replacing for the resto?

Fact of the matter, it's a 440 4bbl automatic car. A comparable docs pre resto condition 70 Challenger 440 4bbl auto is $50-$60K car. With a lot bigger buying audience.

Also I think timing is an issue. M-code A-bodies are a niche market, more savvy than average. A smaller group of buyers. That cars' pre resto condition was fresh in the mind of a lot of potential buyers.

Sometimes a little time allows the current condition to stand on its own. This red M-code might change few hands, a couple years will go by, it's history will be forgotten some, and bs embellishments added by used car sellers. It'll be advertised for $69-75K and actually sold for $58K-$60K
Click to expand...


according to the ebay ad, the noted M car was "numbers matching" with the original drive train. the add also listed a lot of new and NOS parts. you are correct about the 69 M-Code market being a limited market. i think the bottom line here is if you are buying "mopars" to "flip" for a profit, the B and E body cars are still where the money is.
 
Not trying to convolute your thread, Jim, but I wonder where the 68 440 Dart would fall as far as value in comparison? I know there were at least two made.

I edited it to say Dart. I originally put Charger like a dumbass. been a long day.
 
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And Jim, how is your car comin along? Wasn't it down here in Georgia gettin worked on?


jimharvard said:
rustyratrod...

you are correct, i stand corrected... the BO 68 Hemi Barracudas ARE the most valuable second gen. cudas out there. i don't really consider those cars in the same category as the 69 M-Code Cudas as the BO cars were strictly "race" cars while the M cars were made to be driven on the street. but you are correct - i don't think you can buy a real 68 BO Hemi Barracuda (if you can find one) for less than $250k.
Click to expand...
 
RustyRatRod said:
Not trying to convolute your thread, Jim, but I wonder where the 68 440 Dart would fall as far as value in comparison? I know there were at least two made.

I edited it to say Dart. I originally put Charger like a dumbass. been a long day.
Click to expand...


i haven't been following the Dart market that much. it's my understanding that there are fewer remaining "M Code" Darts than there are Cudas. i could be wrong. i have seen nice 383 4 sp Darts still bringing good money ($25-$30). if there are fewer 440 Darts out there that should keep their value up. but who knows? i watch a LOT of car auctions on TV and the number of "muscle" cars that are still bringing between $50-$100k seems to be decreasing. AND i think it is clear that the majority of mopars are in third place (as to value) after Chevy and Fords at the national auctions. honestly, i have been amazed at how many "restored" muscle cars are going across the auction blocks for $40k or LESS - which is far below what it costs to go through a restoration of an individual car.
 
RustyRatRod said:
And Jim, how is your car comin along? Wasn't it down here in Georgia gettin worked on?
Click to expand...

my M-Code is back home. AMD finished all the conversion work bringing it back from a cut up drag car to all original chassis and body. they did an incredible job. all the welds and seams look just like factory.

i'm just finishing a "flip house" i purchased last year and will be listing it next week. THAT project has been occupying my entire life for months. once that project is behind me, i'm going to spend the rest of the summer working on the M cuda. i would like to at least have the drive train in it by the end of summer. here's a pic of the car arriving at my house on the shipping trailer....

delivery at home2.jpg
 
I am not sure what they called the 68 440 Darts......M code or what? They were made specifically for Landy and a couple of other teams and that was it. They would be worth a mint I am sure.

jimharvard said:
i haven't been following the Dart market that much. it's my understanding that there are fewer remaining "M Code" Darts than there are Cudas. i could be wrong. i have seen nice 383 4 sp Darts still bringing good money ($25-$30). if there are fewer 440 Darts out there that should keep their value up. but who knows? i watch a LOT of car auctions on TV and the number of "muscle" cars that are still bringing between $50-$100k seems to be decreasing. AND i think it is clear that the majority of mopars are in third place (as to value) after Chevy and Fords at the national auctions. honestly, i have been amazed at how many "restored" muscle cars are going across the auction blocks for $40k or LESS - which is far below what it costs to go through a restoration of an individual car.
Click to expand...
 
That's badass, Jim! So, are you restoring it as close as possible? I seem to recall you said you didn;t have the numbers engine, but the car is a true M code. Still be worth a pile and be super nice either way. Keep us posted!

jimharvard said:
my M-Code is back home. AMD finished all the conversion work bringing it back from a cut up drag car to all original chassis and body. they did an incredible job. all the welds and seams look just like factory.

i'm just finishing a "flip house" i purchased last year and will be listing it next week. THAT project has been occupying my entire life for months. once that project is behind me, i'm going to spend the rest of the summer working on the M cuda. i would like to at least have the drive train in it by the end of summer. here's a pic of the car arriving at my house on the shipping trailer....

View attachment 1715062726
Click to expand...
 
jimharvard said:
according to the ebay ad, the noted M car was "numbers matching" with the original drive train. the add also listed a lot of new and NOS parts. you are correct about the 69 M-Code market being a limited market. i think the bottom line here is if you are buying "mopars" to "flip" for a profit, the B and E body cars are still where the money is.
Click to expand...

Similar situation with B/E-bodies. A similar numbers and restored condition 69 GTX 440 4bbl auto tops out at $40K-$50K car. But more opportunity to cut corners and do a sloppy resto. Less critical buyers and larger market. The profit is in the cutting corners resto or starting with a car bought under market value.

M-codes sell more often needing resto as opposed to restored. It's a car people think should be worth more than they actually sell for restored. People go in with high hopes, but they seem to get passed around.

Also, many think the Dart M-code embodies the sleeper mystic more the the multi striped, hoop scooped, pony car 'Cuda.
 
RustyRatRod said:
That's badass, Jim! So, are you restoring it as close as possible? I seem to recall you said you didn;t have the numbers engine, but the car is a true M code. Still be worth a pile and be super nice either way. Keep us posted!
Click to expand...


well... this car is a real m code car. and the work AMD did put the floor pan, frame rails, inner quarter panels, inner wheel wells and outer quarter panels back to original specs. however, because this car had a lot of "restoration" work done and will never be an "untouched" original car, i am going to build a m car that "was never built." i had AMD install a 4 speed shift tunnel in the floor pan for the 833 4 speed i'm going to install. ALL m cars were automatics. and i'm going to find a 69 "date correct" 440 but i'm going to build it to 69 Road Runner A-12 internal specs with the six pac carb assembly. my goal for this car is to build a Cuda that Plymouth "could" have built from "off the shelf" parts that they had in 1969. the rear diff will be the 8 3/4 posi unit that came in the m Cudas with a 3:91 that was available as a factory option. i'm putting the factory disc brakes on the front (an available Cuda option in 69) and factory drums on the back. i am going to install OEM power steering which you could get in a 383 car but was never offered in the 440 m Cudas. finally, i'm going to use a blacked out fiberglass hood with the "Ramchargers" hood scoop similar to the A-12 Road Runner with the ram-air setup. but for this item, i'm going to install the OEM hood hinges without the springs instead of having the hood be a total "lift off" like the Road Runner's hood was. another item that i'm going to ad to this car is a set of 8 inch wide 69 mopar "Police wheels."

i was 16 and had just got my w.va. driver's license in 1969 when the mid-year A-12 Road Runner came out from Plymouth. i went to the local Chrysler dealer and took a test drive in that car - a hemi orange 440 six pac 4 speed 4:10 read diff beast. it has been 48 years since i took that test drive but i remember it as though it was yesterday! the A-12 Road Runner was an unbelievable car. tire traction in first and second gears on "1969" street tires was almost impossible. the 440's torque along with the low rear gear combined to almost throw you into the back seat under instant hard acceleration in first gear. and the three hollies under that "non-insulated" fiberglass hood sounded like they were going to suck the hood into the engine at redline.

after spending a lot of time enjoying my memory of my six pack Road Runner experience decades ago, it struck me that a fastback Barracuda with the same drive train as the A-12 would be an amazing car - given that the Barracuda is about 400 lbs lighter than the Road Runner. AND you could further shave weight with the fiberglass hood - an item that could easily be found in any mopar parts counter in 1969.

so the car when it's done will be a "real" VIN number M-Code 69 Cuda but with modifications that "could have" been done by Plymouth or a Plymouth dealer in 1969. i think i'm going to paint the car in the same hemi orange as the A-12 Road Runner was offered in. i have a vision in my mind of a brand new orange A-12 Road Runner sitting in the show room of a Plymouth dealership in 1969 right beside a "special" "orange" M-Code Cuda with the same drive line. this vision just strikes me as something "Mr. Norms" would have had if he had sold Plymouths instead of Dodges.

it may take me a number of months but i am going to build the special m code cuda i've described. then i'm going to take it to the mopar nationals in columbus, ohio and see what the reactions might be.
 
I admit I watched those eBay auctions and noted that that car failed to sell at $50k.

Having discussed rebodys with you in the past Jim, it occurred to me that you were pouring a power of money into your car via AMD when it would have been real easy and much cheaper to use your blue shell.

You will clearly be underwater if you need to offload your car for some reason.....but you went into this with your eyes wide open. You didn't want to reshell your car. Your bed is made, now you have to sleep in it.
 
So you're buildin a what if car. That's cool. I can dig it. And it'll still command top dollar I am sure for what it is simply because of the level of restoration work. Seein this come together is gonna be cool.

jimharvard said:
well... this car is a real m code car. and the work AMD did put the floor pan, frame rails, inner quarter panels, inner wheel wells and outer quarter panels back to original specs. however, because this car had a lot of "restoration" work done and will never be an "untouched" original car, i am going to build a m car that "was never built." i had AMD install a 4 speed shift tunnel in the floor pan for the 833 4 speed i'm going to install. ALL m cars were automatics. and i'm going to find a 69 "date correct" 440 but i'm going to build it to 69 Road Runner A-12 internal specs with the six pac carb assembly. my goal for this car is to build a Cuda that Plymouth "could" have built from "off the shelf" parts that they had in 1969. the rear diff will be the 8 3/4 posi unit that came in the m Cudas with a 3:91 that was available as a factory option. i'm putting the factory disc brakes on the front (an available Cuda option in 69) and factory drums on the back. i am going to install OEM power steering which you could get in a 383 car but was never offered in the 440 m Cudas. finally, i'm going to use a blacked out fiberglass hood with the "Ramchargers" hood scoop similar to the A-12 Road Runner with the ram-air setup. but for this item, i'm going to install the OEM hood hinges without the springs instead of having the hood be a total "lift off" like the Road Runner's hood was. another item that i'm going to ad to this car is a set of 8 inch wide 69 mopar "Police wheels."

i was 16 and had just got my w.va. driver's license in 1969 when the mid-year A-12 Road Runner came out from Plymouth. i went to the local Chrysler dealer and took a test drive in that car - a hemi orange 440 six pac 4 speed 4:10 read diff beast. it has been 48 years since i took that test drive but i remember it as though it was yesterday! the A-12 Road Runner was an unbelievable car. tire traction in first and second gears on "1969" street tires was almost impossible. the 440's torque along with the low rear gear combined to almost throw you into the back seat under instant hard acceleration in first gear. and the three hollies under that "non-insulated" fiberglass hood sounded like they were going to suck the hood into the engine at redline.

after spending a lot of time enjoying my memory of my six pack Road Runner experience decades ago, it struck me that a fastback Barracuda with the same drive train as the A-12 would be an amazing car - given that the Barracuda is about 400 lbs lighter than the Road Runner. AND you could further shave weight with the fiberglass hood - an item that could easily be found in any mopar parts counter in 1969.

so the car when it's done will be a "real" VIN number M-Code 69 Cuda but with modifications that "could have" been done by Plymouth or a Plymouth dealer in 1969. i think i'm going to paint the car in the same hemi orange as the A-12 Road Runner was offered in. i have a vision in my mind of a brand new orange A-12 Road Runner sitting in the show room of a Plymouth dealership in 1969 right beside a "special" "orange" M-Code Cuda with the same drive line. this vision just strikes me as something "Mr. Norms" would have had if he had sold Plymouths instead of Dodges.

it may take me a number of months but i am going to build the special m code cuda i've described. then i'm going to take it to the mopar nationals in columbus, ohio and see what the reactions might be.
Click to expand...
 
If the market did collapse, it would help more people buy their dream cars. :)
 
I think the naill has been hit on the head a few times here!! For one, the car was too fresh on the block, and the resto done and then rushed to market may have hurt it some! More so tho, and this is just my opinion, when a car needs a lot of metal work, it diminishes the value exponentially!! I know there is good metal out there, and people are doing better than factory jobs on replacing that metal, but to me, when metal is replaced, I tend to shy away from the car more so than I would an original metal car! The more metal replaced, the less I become interested!

I have been actively looking to trade my all original metal GTX for a 70 Roadrunner, and came across this 44k original mile example near me! It was going to be a 3 car deal, he was going to trade me 3 cars for mine, but the RR needed every panel replaced from a bad storage situation, and the other cars (68 Cuda and 67 Coronet R/T) would not have paid for the resto! Not to mention that I would've gone from an all original metal car to a car with every panel replaced!! I really want a 70 RR, but not at what I consider a trade down for one!! Does that make sense??

IMG_3759.JPG


IMG_3763.JPG


IMG_3762.JPG
 
cosgig said:
..... More so tho, and this is just my opinion, when a car needs a lot of metal work, it diminishes the value exponentially!! I know there is good metal out there, and people are doing better than factory jobs on replacing that metal, but to me, when metal is replaced, I tend to shy away from the car more so than I would an original metal car! The more metal replaced, the less I become interested!....
Click to expand...

I'll never understand why anyone gives a rats whether the metal is original or not.

If the car is perfectly straight with a 10/10 paint job and no rust, I don't give a damn that the Road Runner has has a Satellite fender on it, or an AMD rust repair section in the rear quarter. I've taken that mindset to its ultimate conclusion, and I don't care if it's a 100% rebody (the ultimate metal replacement). Use all new AMD metal, or use another shell...same same.
 
When you're asking/spending north of $70k on a car.....yea, it matters!!

So then, tell me this Mr. Gorsky....

There are 2 identical Hemi Cuda convertibles sitting side by side for sale...same color, same drivetrain, same options, same price!! One is a completely original metal example, one is a rebody from a 6 cylinder car with a bunch of metal replaced with aftermarket panels!! You mean to tell me that you would choose the pieced together example???
 
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I could park two $100,000 'Cuda's next to each other and you could look them over for a week and not pick which one had both doors, both fenders, and roof replaced.

It doesn't matter, and if you think it does you are kidding yourself.
 
cosgig said:
So then, tell me this Mr. Gorsky....

There are 2 identical Hemi Cuda convertibles sitting side by side for sale...same color, same drivetrain, same options, same price!! One is a completely original metal example, one is a rebody from a 6 cylinder car with a bunch of metal replaced with aftermarket panels!! You mean to tell me that you would choose the pieced together example???
Click to expand...

Since they're both the same I would buy the one from the owner who's wife had the nicest rack :).
 
So, the numbers on the radiator support, trunk lip and other tell tale marks of a rebody wouldn't effect the value of a high dollar car??? Wow, didn't know that!!! Must be kidding myself!!!

I would however, take said rack into consideration!!! :)
 
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